# Kavanaugh supporters: Do you think he lied? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 30, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225 "2018-09-30T20:02:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/81 "2018-10-01T18:13:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > BTW, **RitterSport** , kudos to you for doing your best to keep this thread civil. If it does turn into a shitshow, it won’t be because you didn’t try your best to be fair and open-minded and hear the other side. Thanks! And, thank you for your thoughtful replies. Every Kav thread seems to go south so quickly and becomes practically pit material. So far, so good here, but I fear it may not last. I only really know of one more confirmed K supporter\* (although I’ve probably missed a few, and there are no doubt many here who just steer clear), so I’m hoping he weighs in before this goes off the rails. - I’m not trying to stigmatize anyone, but **UV** , **Shodan** , and you have been most active in these threads. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/82 "2018-10-01T18:19:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What would you accept as proof? It’s very difficult to prove a negative, as mentioned. That’s the point. Kavanaugh is being required on some level to prove it never happened. “He can’t prove it didn’t happen, so he is a perjurer” is not, to me, a persuasive argument. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/83 "2018-10-01T18:25:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s very difficult to prove a negative, as mentioned. That’s the point. Kavanaugh is being required on some level to prove it never happened. “He can’t prove it didn’t happen, so he is a perjurer” is not, to me, a persuasive argument. > > Regards, > Shodan “You can’t prove him wrong” seems to be an extremely low bar when it comes to a lifelong appointment to the SCOTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/84 "2018-10-01T18:32:27Z")
Also note the goalpost shift from “no good evidence” to “can’t prove a negative”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/85 "2018-10-01T18:35:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, that isn’t certain. > OK, prove that Devil’s Triangle didn’t mean a drinking game at Kavanaugh’s high school in 1982. That’s what you have to do before you can claim certainty. Sure, I am asking you to prove a negative. But that’s the point - Kavanaugh is being asked to prove a negative. > OK, prove it. When did it happen, what was Kavanaugh’s BAC when it happened, and how do you know it? > And the answer would be yes. You seem to be demanding a higher level of proof than would be required even in a jury trial, and this isn’t a jury trial. I’m pretty sure that reasonable people could conclude that Kavanaugh lied on a “beyond a reasonable doubt” basis. But that’s not enough for you–you want absolute proof, knowing that no such thing exists. I wonder if this is your usual standard of proof (he said, knowing that it isn’t). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/86 "2018-10-01T18:45:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Also note the goalpost shift from “no good evidence” to “can’t prove a negative”. There has been no shift of goalposts. If you are going to claim certainty, you need proof. If you are going to charge perjury, you need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If you are going to claim anything else, you need good evidence. I haven’t seen any so far, and simply repeating yourself louder doesn’t do it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/87 "2018-10-01T18:45:35Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > It’s not whether \*you \*know what they mean, it’s whether \*he \*knew what the terms that were in his own yearbook entries meant. I didn’t know those definitions either, but they weren’t in my yearbook entries. Sure. My point was only that if these terms have only one possible definition that everyone knows the fact that I’m unfamiliar with them makes it hard for me to form a conclusion on whether that’s true and on what he thought they meant. A quick Google search tells me that “boof” means anal sex, something to do with kayaking, insertion of alcohol or drugs into your own rectum, and has frequently been used onomatopoetically (and I probably should not google things like that at the office). But I don’t know how common those definitions were back then. If asked in the abstract what “Have you boofed yet” means, I would have guessed vomit. But I don’t think I’ve ever heard the term before. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/88 "2018-10-01T18:55:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There has been no shift of goalposts. If you are going to claim certainty, you need proof. If you are going to charge perjury, you need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If you are going to claim anything else, you need good evidence. I haven’t seen any so far, and simply repeating yourself louder doesn’t do it. > > Regards, > Shodan He is not on trial-he is interviewing for a job. What do you not understand? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/89 "2018-10-01T18:59:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There has been no shift of goalposts. If you are going to claim certainty, you need proof. If you are going to charge perjury, you need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If you are going to claim anything else, you need good evidence. I haven’t seen any so far, and simply repeating yourself louder doesn’t do it. > > Regards, > Shodan Question: are all these independent accounts, including from Kavanaugh himself, of heavy binge drinking, evidence? Good evidence? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/90 "2018-10-01T19:02:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There has been no shift of goalposts. If you are going to claim certainty, you need proof. If you are going to charge perjury, you need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If you are going to claim anything else, you need good evidence. I haven’t seen any so far, and simply repeating yourself louder doesn’t do it. > > Regards, > Shodan Who is claiming certainty? It just seems likely he lied when he told the Senate that’s what those words mean, for example. Who is going to charge perjury? From here, it really looks like those goalposts are moving. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/91 "2018-10-01T19:04:11Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Sure. My point was only that if these terms have only one possible definition that everyone knows the fact that I’m unfamiliar with them makes it hard for me to form a conclusion on whether that’s true and on what he thought they meant. A quick Google search tells me that “boof” means anal sex, something to do with kayaking, insertion of alcohol or drugs into your own rectum, and has frequently been used onomatopoetically (and I probably should not google things like that at the office). But I don’t know how common those definitions were back then. If asked in the abstract what “Have you boofed yet” means, I would have guessed vomit. But I don’t think I’ve ever heard the term before. Note, nothing about passing gas, which is what he claimed it meant. And, Devil’s Triangle? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/92 "2018-10-01T19:15:13Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Who is claiming certainty? I, for one, am claiming certainty. I am certain that he was a frequent heavy binge drinker due to multiple independent accounts from different people including Kavanaugh himself. I am certain that frequent heavy binge drinkers experience blackouts often due to the physiology of alcohol tolerance with respect to motor function, etc. as compared to the physiology of alcohol tolerance with respect to the ability to transfer memories from short term to long term. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/93 "2018-10-01T19:21:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He is not on trial-he is interviewing for a job. > What do you not understand? And has already demonstrated that he is tempermentally unsuited to the job in addition to lying in several other responses unrelated to Thursday’s hearing. Even if you start with the premise that Kavanaugh and Ford were on equal footing in terms of credibility, Kavanaugh “boofed” his way right into the gutter with his conspiranoiac opening statement and kept going until he hot rock. Why the GOP is stuck on jamming Kavanaugh through is a puzzler, other than the sheer obstinance that comes with getting caught doing something they know they never should have considered. Lindsey Graham’s little hissy fit shows everything wrong with the process; for the Republicans it is all about grandstanding for Trump’s approval. But really, if they want a conservative Supreme Court justice, they’ve got a whole bag of options of which there are presumably a few who aren’t overgrown rapey frat boys screaming, “I DRINK BEER! I LIKE BEER! BOYS LIKE BEER! GIRLS LIKE BEER! I LIKE BEER!” in a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/94 "2018-10-01T19:22:25Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Who is claiming certainty? > [@RitterSport](#): > > Do you agree that he was \*\*certainly \*\*incorrect in how he described those terms, such as Devil’s Triangle, etc? Emphasis added. See also **Lance Turbo** ’s post. Note also that I am not moving any goalposts - he claims certainty, which requires more than good evidence - it requires proof. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/95 "2018-10-01T19:24:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Emphasis added. See also **Lance Turbo** ’s post. Note also that I am not moving any goalposts - he claims certainty, which requires more than good evidence - it requires proof. > > Regards, > Shodan Proof has been provided. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/96 "2018-10-01T19:26:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Emphasis added. See also **Lance Turbo** ’s post. Note also that I am not moving any goalposts - he claims certainty, which requires more than good evidence - it requires proof. No, it doesn’t. It just requires certainty. Do you have absolute proof for everything you are certain about? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/97 "2018-10-01T19:31:37Z")
One more time for clarity… 1. It has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Kavanaugh was a frequent heavy binge drinker. 2. It has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that frequent heavy binge drinkers blackout often. 3. Therefore, it has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Brett Kavanaugh blacked out often. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/98 "2018-10-01T19:33:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, it doesn’t. It just requires certainty. So you are absolutely certain about this, even without proof. _:shrugs:_ Certainty without evidence is not a position that is amenable to discussion. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/99 "2018-10-01T19:33:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Emphasis added. See also **Lance Turbo** ’s post. Note also that I am not moving any goalposts - he claims certainty, which requires more than good evidence - it requires proof. If you were hiring a babysitter, and you had strong suspicion that the person you were interviewing was a child molester because of reports from friends and neighbors, would you hire that person because absolute proof of child molestation could not be provided? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/100 "2018-10-01T19:34:21Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Note, nothing about passing gas, which is what he claimed it meant. And, Devil’s Triangle? My point was that I don’t know. I don’t know these terms. Other than as a reference to the Bermuda Triangle, I am entirely unfamiliar with the term “Devil’s Triangle”. The question is whether I thought he was lying about these specific items. My answer was: “I don’t have sufficient knowledge or information to form a belief” I had a (somewhat) informed opinion on your “lie” #4 (about the Judge letter), because I’m familiar with section 1001 and I can easily read a copy of the letter. Based on that, I found the allegation of lying not well-taken. Similarly, on “lie” # 3 (nature and scope of drinking), I could review the transcript and conclude that I found the answers to be evasive (often avoiding the question entirely), but not “lies”. It was not unfamiliar to my experience of cross-examining a hostile witness. My personal experience with alcohol leads me to believe that many of the indicia of guaranteed blackouts that his contemporaries identified (stumbling, slurred speech, even getting into fights) are things that I experienced without blacking out (although, the point about knowing you blacked out in a situation where there isn’t some unexplained event that occurred is well-taken). But, I have no basis to form an opinion on the meanings of terms in his yearbook. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225.md?page=6)