# Kavanaugh supporters: Do you think he lied? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 30, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225 "2018-09-30T20:02:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/101 "2018-10-01T19:35:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you are absolutely certain about this, even without proof. > > _:shrugs:_ > > Certainty without evidence is not a position that is amenable to discussion. > > Regards, > Shodan Get your hands off those damned goalposts-I said proof, not evidence. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/102 "2018-10-01T19:46:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > While I think it’s likely in some cases, it’s not a certainty. No, I don’t think it should be disqualifying, at least with what I’ve seen revealed publicly so far. The OP feels – and I agree – that his items 1-3 describe Kavanaugh lying before Congress. I’m willing to acknowledge that item 4 is less certain. You yourself acknowledge the likelihood that some of Kav’s statements were lies. So let me summarize, and feel free to correct anything I got wrong. Kavanaugh swore an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and then proceeded to lie his ass off. Besides this fact that even you acknowledge, this evidence of dishonesty would also seem to cast doubt over everything else he said, including his denial of Ford’s basic accusation. Yet you feel he should still be confirmed. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d probably feel like it was a bigger problem if I knew he definitely had lied to the Senate rather than just suspecting it was likely. Even then though, I’m under the vague impression that people regularly lie to the Senate, so I’m not certain I would. Even if true, those other people weren’t candidates for an appointment to the Supreme Court. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m fairly convinced the other eight already do that. So in your view, not only is Kavanaugh fit to be a Supreme Court justice despite lying to Congress under oath, he’s also fit despite a flagrant – almost conspiratorial – demonstration of extreme bias against Democrats and progressives. I’m finding it hard at this point to imagine anything about Kavanaugh that you would admit to being disqualifying. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/103 "2018-10-01T19:50:17Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > 1. It has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that frequent heavy binge drinkers blackout often. I’m curious as to the support of this proposition (for reasons more for my own interest than related to Kavanaugh). Because I assume you _don’t_ mean “frequent heavy binge drinkers often blackout” (which is clearly true, but would create a problem for your “all A are B” argument). Instead, I understand you to be saying that it’s been proven that all “frequent heavy binge drinkers” blackout and they do so often. I tried to google this and came across [this](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4844761/). Which I don’t really understand, since I’m no scientist, so I don’t know if it answers my question. But one thing did jump out at me: They talk about “two qualitatively distinct types of blackouts: en bloc and fragmentary.” The latter they also refer to as a “gray out” which involves “partial amnesia during a drinking episode, but one may be able to recall events of the episode with relevant cues.” As contrasted with an “en bloc blackout” which has “a distinct onset, and involve complete memory loss for a specific period of the drinking event.” Not that it really matters (except with respect to my personal experience), but I’m not sure I would be defined “fragmentary blackouts” as “blackouts” until reading that. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/104 "2018-10-01T20:04:24Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I’m curious as to the support of this proposition (for reasons more for my own interest than related to Kavanaugh). Because I assume you _don’t_ mean “frequent heavy binge drinkers often blackout” (which is clearly true, but would create a problem for your “all A are B” argument). Instead, I understand you to be saying that it’s been proven that all “frequent heavy binge drinkers” blackout and they do so often. > > I tried to google this and came across [this](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4844761/). Which I don’t really understand, since I’m no scientist, so I don’t know if it answers my question. > > But one thing did jump out at me: They talk about “two qualitatively distinct types of blackouts: en bloc and fragmentary.” The latter they also refer to as a “gray out” which involves “partial amnesia during a drinking episode, but one may be able to recall events of the episode with relevant cues.” As contrasted with an “en bloc blackout” which has “a distinct onset, and involve complete memory loss for a specific period of the drinking event.” Not that it really matters (except with respect to my personal experience), but I’m not sure I would be defined “fragmentary blackouts” as “blackouts” until reading that. To add to this, being “blacked-out” doesnt mean being obliterated. [Not everyone gets black outs](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180613-why-do-only-some-people-get-blackout-drunk), even when drinking the same amount of alcohol. Also, during “blackouts”, people can appear coherent and lucid. Blackouts are in no way only in the realm of the “problem-drinker”. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/105 "2018-10-01T20:13:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How do you know that you didn’t get so drunk in high school that you don’t remember? Can you prove it never happened? > > Regards, > Shodan I make the claim that I never went to parties in high school–I did not run with a crowd that threw parties at which alcohol was served, and I was never invited to one. My friends and I socialized almost exclusively by going to the movies or bowling or hanging out at the mall. Can I prove that with physical evidence? No, of course not. I’m not really in touch with my high school friends anymore, but I could find a few on Facebook and probably get statements to the effect that they don’t remember me going to parties and getting drunk. That doesn’t prove anything 100%, but it doesn’t contradict my memory or my statements, either. And I would never claim anything about a particular event on a particular date–I’m just talking about a pattern of behavior. But, like I said before, I do remember the general circumstances of the one time I did get blackout drunk in college, because the emotion I felt when told about my behavior was so strong. Just like I remember the general circumstances of the first kiss I had with my future wife (in the dorm elevator, sometime in February 1983), though I can’t tell you the date or time of day or the color of our clothes or anything else specific. But that’s not at issue here. Multiple schoolmates of Kavanaugh, and Kavanaugh himself, have attested to him being drunk on multiple occasions. His own calendar (and what kind of person keeps their day planner for 36 years, anyway?) contradicts the statement he made about not going to parties with alcohol on weeknights. His denials that he ever blacked out (more precisely, never lost some short-term memories of events that happened while he was drinking) are therefore much less credible. He may believe he never lost memories due to drinking, but his unwillingness to even entertain the possibility is distressing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/106 "2018-10-01T20:37:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Get your hands off those damned goalposts-I said proof, not evidence. So you are saying that you are not certain that Kavanaugh assaulted Ford? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/107 "2018-10-01T20:43:41Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I’m curious as to the support of this proposition (for reasons more for my own interest than related to Kavanaugh). Because I assume you _don’t_ mean “frequent heavy binge drinkers often blackout” (which is clearly true, but would create a problem for your “all A are B” argument). Instead, I understand you to be saying that it’s been proven that all “frequent heavy binge drinkers” blackout and they do so often. [Cite](https://www.self.com/story/5-myths-we-need-to-stop-believing-about-alcohol-blackouts) > [@](#): > > Dr. White says. “Because memory circuits don’t become very tolerant to alcohol, heavy drinkers who can reach high blood alcohol concentrations and still walk around black out frequently.” Here Dr. White is Aaron White, Ph.D., senior scientific advisor to the NIAAA director and one of the country’s leading experts on blackouts. Here’s what’s going on. A person can build up their tolerance for motor function, speech function, holding on to their stomach contents, but no one can build up a tolerance for transferring memories from short term to long term. Frequent heavy binge drinkers always get to the point where their tolerance is high enough that they can walk and talk, and more importantly keep drinking, after they are no longer recording memories. Maybe not every time they drink, but often. Protestations of the form, “I’ve been drunk a few times and I’ve never blacked out,” are missing the point. Here are the quotes from people who knew him: “Brett was a frequent drinker, and a heavy drinker.” “On many occasions I heard Brett slur his words and saw him staggering from alcohol consumption, not all of which was beer.” “He drank heavily, he was a partier, he liked to do beer bongs, he played drinking games, he was sloppy drunk.” “It is from this experience that I concluded that although Brett was normally reserved, he was a notably heavy drinker, even by the standards of the time.” “I do remember Brett frequently drinking excessively and becoming incoherently drunk.” “There is no doubt in my mind that while at Yale, he was a big partier, often drank to excess, and there had to be a number of nights where he does not remember.” He was a frequent heavy binge drinker. His experiences were not like your experiences. He didn’t drink once in a while and get drunk occasionally. He drank like it a man on mission. A mission to get fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/108 "2018-10-01T20:44:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you are saying that you are not certain that Kavanaugh assaulted Ford? I’m pretty sure what I said was > [@](#): > > Get your hands off those damned goalposts-I said proof, not evidence. Which word(s) are you having trouble understanding? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/109 "2018-10-01T20:47:45Z")
What’s the point of this? Kavanaugh lies about so many things and displayed for all to see his lack of judicial temperament that it doesn’t matter whether he ever blacked out while drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/110 "2018-10-02T00:17:40Z")
[Nate Silver](https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1046916367482523648) > [@](#): > > I haven’t been covering politics for _that_ long, but long enough (11 years) that I feel entitled to play this “card”: The position that Kavanaugh was being honest about his drinking is maybe _the_ worst hill to die upon that I’ve ever seen otherwise-smart people try to die upon. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/111 "2018-10-02T00:34:36Z")
> [@RickG](#): > > … His own calendar (and what kind of person keeps their day planner for 36 years, anyway?) contradicts the statement he made about not going to parties with alcohol on weeknights. … I thought his statement was something along the lines of “usually on the weekends” (and I’m pretty sure he was excluding the summer break from that usually-weekends claim, but I can’t find a transcript of the exchange and I’m not going to watch hours of YouTube to try to track down the precise quote). ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/112 "2018-10-02T00:45:23Z")
> [@](#): > > But I did have the summer of 1982 documented pretty well. The event described by Dr. Ford, presumably happened on a weekend because I believed everyone worked and had jobs in the summers. And in any event, a drunken early evening event of the kind she describes, presumably happened on a weekend. He then spends several paragraphs explaining how busy he was on weekends. [Complete transcript](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/national/wp/2018/09/27/kavanaugh-hearing-transcript/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cf40acc229ab) That’s another weird thing about his statement. He builds this weekend straw man and then beats the fuck out of it. Nobody said shit about weekends before you. Makes me really think this happened during the week. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/113 "2018-10-02T01:24:20Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > … he’s also fit despite a flagrant – almost conspiratorial – demonstration of extreme bias against Democrats and progressives. … Yes, at least as fit as RBG. > [@wolfpup](#): > > … I’m finding it hard at this point to imagine anything about Kavanaugh that you would admit to being disqualifying. Convincing corroboration of the alleged sexual assault(s) would go a long ways. I’m sure there are other things too. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/114 "2018-10-02T01:25:51Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > He then spends several paragraphs explaining how busy he was on weekends. > > [Complete transcript](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/national/wp/2018/09/27/kavanaugh-hearing-transcript/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cf40acc229ab) > > That’s another weird thing about his statement. He builds this weekend straw man and then beats the fuck out of it. Nobody said shit about weekends before you. Makes me really think this happened during the week. Your theory is that Ford doesn’t know what day of the week this happened on but Kavanaugh does? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/115 "2018-10-02T01:27:55Z")
What’s also weird is that the “event”, according to Kavanaugh, didn’t even happen. So how can he presume an event that never occurred must have occurred on a weekend? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/116 "2018-10-02T01:31:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your theory is that Ford doesn’t know what day of the week this happened on but Kavanaugh does? More like, Kavanaugh wants us to assume that it happened on a weekend because, rather conveniently, that’s when he had alibis. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/117 "2018-10-02T01:31:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your theory is that Ford doesn’t know what day of the week this happened on but Kavanaugh does? My theory is that… It must have been on a weekend because inadequate reasons, but I was busy on the weekends so it couldn’t have been me. … is an extremely weak argument. Agree or disagree? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/118 "2018-10-02T01:32:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What’s also weird is that the “event”, according to Kavanaugh, didn’t even happen. So how can he presume an event that never occurred must have occurred on a weekend? I don’t see why this is weird. If someone said to me something like “the other day when you were at home having lunch …”, I may not recall the event, but I know that virtually every M-F I’m at work for lunch, so presumably if I were home for lunch it would have been on a weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/119 "2018-10-02T01:34:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t see why this is weird. If someone said to me something like “the other day when you were at home having lunch …”, I may not recall the event, but I know that virtually every M-F I’m at work for lunch, so presumably if I were home for lunch it would have been on a weekend. Except in this case he has calendar entries for drinking with friends on weekdays. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225/120 "2018-10-02T01:34:31Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > My theory is that… > > It must have been on a weekend because inadequate reasons, but I was busy on the weekends so it couldn’t have been me. > > … is an extremely weak argument. > > Agree or disagree? See my post above about the weekend presumption, but yes, Kavanaugh shouldn’t get to rule out summer weekdays quite that easily. I hope the FBI asked Ford about her partying habits (do you remember going to other parties / gatherings with alcohol? do you recall if they were on weekdays or weekends? do you recall the people you attended these gatherings with that might be able to corroborate? etc). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kavanaugh-supporters-do-you-think-he-lied/822225.md?page=7)