# Keep God out of the fucking classroom already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2007, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738 "2007-10-06T07:36:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/1 "2007-10-06T07:36:47Z")
Ok, God in a philosophy or theology or perhaps history course is fine. We have all seen the attacks on Evolution and some other sciences in schools but it has now gotten into the MATH classroom? > [@](#): > > Consider first a Baptist school in Texas whose description of a geometry course begins: > > _Students will examine the nature of God as they progress in their understanding of mathematics. Students will understand the absolute consistency of mathematical principles and know that God was the inventor of that consistency. They will see God’s nature revealed in the order and precision they review foundational concepts while being able to demonstrate geometric thinking and spatial reasoning. The study of the basics of geometry through making and testing conjectures regarding mathematical and real-world patterns will allow the students to understand the absolute consistency of God as seen in the geometric principles he created._ > SOURCE: [Math: Gift from God or Work of Man?](http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3543453) There is more than that lovely bit in the link. Seriously…WTF is going on? What kind of students are we churning out? I wonder if I was in that Geometry class if I could claim that all the angles in a triangle adding up to 180[sup]o[/sup] is really a matter of faith. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/2 "2007-10-06T08:01:52Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] What kind of students are we churning out? [/QUOTE] Apparently, the kind who don’t know the difference between a public school and a private school. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/3 "2007-10-06T08:15:35Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Apparently, the kind who don’t know the difference between a public school and a private school. [/QUOTE] What does a private school have to do with it? I’d expect certain criteria to be set by the state for any school including home schooling. Are we to expect kids to have their minds filled with just about anything as long as it is privately done? I have no issue with kids getting a theological education but leave that to the churches/synagogues/mosques/whatever to do. I have no issue if someone sees the harmony of math as divinely inspired. But I do not see where teaching theology is side-by-side with teaching the quadratic equation. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/4 "2007-10-06T08:18:53Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] I have no issue if someone sees the harmony of math as divinely inspired. But I do not see where teaching theology is side-by-side with teaching the quadratic equation. [/QUOTE] I studied Algebra & Geometry in a Christian school. The grandiose claims of finding God in math are textbook advertising noise for the “Bible above all” crowd. The actual classes, in my experience, are just math classes. ---
**Author:** ![H3Knuckles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@H3Knuckles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H3Knuckles)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/5 "2007-10-06T08:31:50Z")
sorry **Whack-a-mole** , this rant is a lame duck. It’s a Baptist school. It’s a school expressly for teaching a religious ideology in it’s curriculum. The fact that they are teaching about god in a math course at a Christian school is not evidence of a crack across the face of society. I wholly support a completely secular public education system. But when a private school established to brainwa… teach these kids about the importance of God actually does that, it’s none of our business, or the government’s. Freedom of religion, for better or for worse. PS. In the interests of full disclosure, I’m a very liberal Christian myself, I believe in people finding their own definition of God. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/6 "2007-10-06T08:55:56Z")
[QUOTE=H3Knuckles] I wholly support a completely secular public education system. But when a private school established to brainwa… teach these kids about the importance of God actually does that, it’s none of our business, or the government’s. Freedom of religion, for better or for worse.. [/QUOTE] It is when they want our tax money, ala “Vouchers”. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![H3Knuckles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@H3Knuckles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H3Knuckles)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/7 "2007-10-06T09:35:55Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] It is when they want our tax money, ala “Vouchers”. :mad: [/QUOTE] Well now, if you want to debate that such a school should not benefit from state funding raised to provide education, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. But the essential concept of a private school is that it has a minimum of state regulation. IMHO, the voucher system is a well-meaning but fundamentally flawed concept, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/8 "2007-10-06T12:30:09Z")
Well, if you want to be terrified just look at the polls about teaching creationism in school. It’s what the people [demand](http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm), for the sake of equality. > [@](#): > > "Regardless of what you may personally believe, which of these do you believe should be taught in public schools? > "Evolution only. [READ IF NECESSARY: Evolution says that human beings evolved from earlier stages of animals.] > "Creationism only. [READ IF NECESSARY: Creationism says that human beings were created directly by God.] > "Intelligent design only. [READ IF NECESSARY: Intelligent design says that human beings are so complex that they required a powerful force or intelligent being to help create them.] > “All three.” > > Evolution only: 12% > Creationism only: 23% > Intelligent design only: 4% > All three: 55% > None of these (vol.): 3% > Unsure: 3% > > … > “Would you generally favor or oppose teaching creation along with evolution in public schools?” > Favor: 65% > Oppose: 29% > Unsure: 6% ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/9 "2007-10-06T12:59:57Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] What does a private school have to do with it? I’d expect certain criteria to be set by the state for any school including home schooling. Are we to expect kids to have their minds filled with just about anything as long as it is privately done? [/QUOTE] You’re from Chicago, right? (It’s in your location field.) There is NO regulation for home schooling in Illinois, and while there is some for private schooling, it is legally and specifically forbidden from mentioning content or curriculum. The state makes sure that a private school is more-or-less financially stable, owns liability insurance, has safe classrooms and delivers the education they promise, but they do not regulate what that education will consist of. I realize you might not have been aware of that. The proper people to contact if you would like this to change would be the Illinois state legislators, I believe. Good luck with that. WhyNot, who was the administrator of a small private school (college) while going through the state approval process. Never again. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/10 "2007-10-06T13:40:58Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] YThe proper people to contact if you would like this to change would be the Illinois state legislators, I believe. Good luck with that. [/QUOTE] He’s from Chicago–but the school in the link is in Texas. It’s apparently [“Castle Hills First Baptist School A Ministry of Castle Hills First Baptist Church.”](http://chfbs.org/) That’s about as “Baptist Private School” as it gets, when they feel a need to put “A Ministry Of” right on their home page. **Whack-a-mole** has about as much chance of getting them to change it as he would have at persuading Kim Jong Il to retire to a nice condo in Miami. And P.S. You can back up the URL, and browse through their parent directory. Every single one of their high school course descriptions contains a reference to God, such as, “ART–Students will understand that art is a gift from God designed for His worship”, and, “NINTH GRADE WORLD LITERATURE I–The students will use essential English skills in communicating with God and others.” It’s not a “school”, it’s a “ministry”. They’re there to evangelize and proselytize, not “teach”. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/11 "2007-10-06T13:55:05Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] He’s from Chicago–but the school in the link is in Texas. [/QUOTE] Oh right, I get that. I was a little sloppy in my wording. My intent was to point out that even in his (our, I’m in Chicago as well) enlightened Blue State of the North doesn’t regulate homeschooling or private school curricula. > [@](#): > > **Whack-a-mole** has about as much chance of getting them to change it as he would have at persuading Kim Jong Il to retire to a nice condo in Miami. Well, maybe Chris Garver will give Mr. Jong Il a nice tatt to sweeten the deal? 😉 > [@](#): > > And P.S. You can back up the URL, and browse through their parent directory. Every single one of their high school course descriptions contains a reference to God, such as, “ART–Students will understand that art is a gift from God designed for His worship”, and, “NINTH GRADE WORLD LITERATURE I–The students will use essential English skills in communicating with God and others.” My WAG is that whoever writes the course descriptions is instructed to wedge God into there somewhere, as they’ve probably promised the parents that God and the Baptist faith will be pervasively present in their school. And, y’know, my dad’s degree is in mathematics, and he has told me that the higher he got in math, the more he became convinced that there is a God. My grandfather (my mom’s dad) said the same thing about chemistry. Science and faith are not antithetical. > [@](#): > > It’s not a “school”, it’s a “ministry”. They’re there to evangelize and proselytize, not “teach”. Potayto, potahto. Right now my kid’s public school is evangelizing on the Black Experience in America. As long as they’re upfront about it (and if it’s mentioned in every class description, that’s about as transparent as you can get), I don’t much care. ETA: And I don’t think they’re actually evangalizing or proselytizing at all. That would suggest that they’re seeking non-Baptists as students to convert them. They’re pretty clearly preaching to the choir, probably literally. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/12 "2007-10-06T13:56:13Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] I have no issue with kids getting a theological education but leave that to the churches/synagogues/mosques/whatever to do. [/QUOTE] Right. This is a church. They’ve tricked out what is basically their Sunday School department as an accredited K-12 school. Which is their prerogative. “Separation of church and state”, religious freedom, and all that. So if they wanna involve God in their geometry curriculum, that’s also their prerogative. As long as their students fulfill all diploma requirements of the State of Texas, what **else** they’re learning is their own business. Sorry that math professor John Allen Paulos didn’t see that, either, but maybe he was just hurting for a column topic this month. Must not be easy to come up with lowest-common-denominator-consumer-friendly math-related topics for ABC News. And I think it’s basically dishonest of him (but shows his journalistic bent to a T) for him to begin his column with… > [@](#): > > _School begins again, and we read more about the intrusion of pseudoscience into school science curricula in this country, particularly into the study of biology and evolution._ …and then to use as an example the curriculum from a rock-bottom Southern Baptist Texas, very, very small (only about 300 students) obscure Christian school. What about all the other, better examples from the last few years about creationism and evolution in the classroom? Answer–this one is so far out in left field that it’s guaranteed to get people talking about it, and by extension, about **him** , and his column. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/13 "2007-10-06T14:01:49Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] My WAG is that whoever writes the course descriptions is instructed to wedge God into there somewhere, as they’ve probably promised the parents that God and the Baptist faith will be pervasively present in their school. [/QUOTE] Heh. It’s not “wedged”–it’s right up there in front of, well, God ‘n’ everybody. 😃 From their “About”: > [@](#): > > Castle Hills First Baptist School (CHFBS) began in 1981 by a group of interested members of Castle Hills First Baptist Church and the Church Pastor, Dr. George H. Harris. The school began with grades 1-6 and an enrollment of nearly 100 students and has continued to grow. Our current enrollment is 308 students in grades K-12. Today, CHFBS continues to be one of the most influential Christian schools in the South Texas area. > > The faculty, staff, and leadership of Castle Hills First Baptist School remain ever steadfast in their dedication to make Christian education at our school a standard where others can see that our children develop their abilities to the fullest. > > From the first day of school until the cycle runs its course for the year and summer arrives, our students are motivated daily by a rigorous yet invigorating curriculum that not only challenges each child to a higher level of thinking but also fuses God’s inerrant Word to each unit of study. Students from various ethnic, social, economic, and church backgrounds gather daily to learn the lessons of an enriched curriculum firmly based in Scriptural Truth. > > At Castle Hills First Baptist School, you will find a fully degreed faculty with state certifications and certifications through our accrediting agency, the Association of Christian Schools International. Additionally, the faculty works with two of the most demanding high school diploma plans in South Texas. Reading, writing, and mathematics are emphasized at all grade levels through innovative teaching. Within the school are three computer labs that help students develop into better readers, create an understanding of various computer applications, allow students to do research through various electronic means, and provide the opportunity to take college courses from our high school campus. > > Finally, at Castle Hills we have identified that approximately 40% of our school children are members of other churches throughout our community and represent several denominations. Our major focus remains to present a challenging and demanding curriculum that is Christ-centered. Note the phrase “God’s inerrant Word”. That’s secret code, Fundie-speak for “Special Creationists”. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/14 "2007-10-06T14:17:03Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] Heh. It’s not “wedged”–it’s right up there in front of, well, God ‘n’ everybody. 😃 From their “About”: [/QUOTE] Exactly. Now, if I were to write that in my catalog in the State of Illinois, the kind lady from the IL State Board of Education would look through my course listings to make sure that I was delivering on that promise. She doesn’t care what the promise is - whether my school “fuses God’s inerrant Word to each unit of study” or teaches in a whole learning model with reading and literature integrated with social studies and math. But whatever it is that I promise to my students, I have to demonstrate that my classes and curriculum support that. It’s then up to the parents and/or students to decide if what I offer is what they want. I’m still in favor of parental choice in schooling, even if some parents make choices light years away from what I would. Doing otherwise is walking down the path to kibbutzum and a far greater State influence on my children than I’m comfortable with. Much like free speech, I feel ethically bound to support those whose choices I disagree with just as much as those I agree with. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/15 "2007-10-06T14:29:29Z")
The linked commentary in the OP might have some reasonable points, but it is buried under so much junk as to make the autor look like an idiot–particularly the assault on the Castle Hills school. Had he gone into the syllabus and attacked Creation in the biology\* class, he’d have had a point, but the comment before the geometry class is innocuous (and his speculation about non-Euclidean geometry being Satanic was just stupid). Tying God into mundane topics in a religious school is hardly a corrupting influence on society. It was a frequent (not constant) message in my Catholic school–where the kids who then moved on to the local public schools consistently scored in the tops of their classes. - [From the High School’s Science and History curricula:](http://chfbs.org/high_school/high_sch_science_history.htm) > [@](#): > > BIOLOGY > > Students will study the physical life of God’s creation. They will continue to develop skills in the use of the scientific method. The students will learn methods and techniques of scientific study, general attributes of the cell and its processes, characteristics of the wide spectrum of living organisms, the classification, similarities and differences of the five kingdoms, evolutionary models and the creation model, the mechanics of inheritance, disease and disorders, and the workings of the human body. Students will gain experience in manipulating the conditions of a laboratory investigation and in evaluating the applications of biological principles in everyday life. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/16 "2007-10-06T14:39:09Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Tying God into mundane topics in a religious school is hardly a corrupting influence on society. It was a frequent (not constant) message in my Catholic school–where the kids who then moved on to the local public schools consistently scored in the tops of their classes. [/QUOTE] It doesn’t mean that we cannot point at laugh at the lunacy of it. RE: public versus Catholic schools, an alternate anecdote: My wife went to a Catholic school and I to a public school. In 11th grade science, we were making 3D images with lasers. They were measuring bricks to determine the volume. ETA: She didn’t mention if they were told up front that God was in the bricks. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/17 "2007-10-06T14:49:41Z")
Catholic schools can be pretty uneven in their science delivery, (and sometimes in their math classes). However, my sole point had nothing to do with superiority by institution, only noting that having God thrown into the classroom did not stunt the education of the one group in which I participated. Dopers pointing and laughing at Fundamentalist Christians is an expected part of life. Idiotic columnists making stupid comparisons based on illogical constructs are at least as worthy of scorn. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/18 "2007-10-06T15:08:21Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] It doesn’t mean that we cannot point at laugh at the lunacy of it. [/QUOTE] We had a story in our local paper recently about homeschooling. They profiled a parent who is doing “unschooling,” and described some of the curriculum. One day, it involved letting a 10-year-old stay up to watch the late-night rerun of “Oprah” (airs from 11-12 PM here), and then going to check a book out of the library the next day that was on the same topic that Oprah had been discussing. Letting Oprah set your curriculum…now THAT’S lunacy. I’d much rather have some church school teaching the kids that God created math…as long as they’re actually learning math, that’s cool with me. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/19 "2007-10-06T15:11:26Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Apparently, the kind who don’t know the difference between a public school and a private school. [/QUOTE] This made me giggle 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/20 "2007-10-06T15:17:33Z")
I’ve seen a biology textbook from a private Christian school-mostly it was indistinguishible from a typical biology textbook-except for an anti-evolution/secularism screed every 10 pages or so. Then you read past that and it’s typicaly biology again. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738.md?page=2)