# Keep God out of the fucking classroom already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2007, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738 "2007-10-06T07:36:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/81 "2007-10-08T19:04:30Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] If you are going to make this accusation would you care to cite where I said or even implied this? [/quote] You have repeatedly said that even privately funded religious schools should not teach religion in a math class. You are trying to dictate what a private person can do in a private setting based on YOUR notion of right and wrong. And that is contrary to the concept of freedom. [QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] I think it absolutely IS my business. [/quote] Well, Mrs. Kravitz, you can think whatever you want, but you don’t have a leg to stand on legally or constitutionally. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I find the lack of oversight of private schools (as discussed in this thread) appalling. To suggest that I have no stake or no right to comment or be concerned is wrongheaded. If you find that kids from a certain school consistently underperform on standardized tests, then you might have more support here. But until you come up with something other than your righteous indignation, it certainly appears that you are merely spinning your wheels over a problem that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/82 "2007-10-08T20:33:35Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] What I am essentially telling you is that I no more trust your judgment in deciding what’s best for my child than you trust mine. So fucko off. [/QUOTE] Nor should you which is why this is never one person’s task. You have state employees, boards of education and so on. They, as a group, can decide and you as a parent can weigh in. But at the end of the day what they say goes (or should). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/83 "2007-10-08T20:39:07Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] You have repeatedly said that even privately funded religious schools should not teach religion in a math class. You are trying to dictate what a private person can do in a private setting based on YOUR notion of right and wrong. And that is contrary to the concept of freedom. Well, Mrs. Kravitz, you can think whatever you want, but you don’t have a leg to stand on legally or constitutionally. [/QUOTE] What constitutional freedom is at stake by regulating schools? And since when is regulating a constitutional freedom unusual? Think you have an absolute right to free speech? To say whatever you like at any time? You do not. Free speech is in fact limited. “Freedom” is not absolute. We accept many curbs on it. I think a school is an appropriate place for the state to peek into and have a role in regulating it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/84 "2007-10-08T20:41:15Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Nor should you which is why this is never one person’s task. You have state employees, boards of education and so on. They, as a group, can decide and you as a parent can weigh in. But at the end of the day what they say goes (or should). [/QUOTE] Well then, what they’ve said is that Baptists can have their religious schools. So now what. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/85 "2007-10-08T20:46:30Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Nor should you which is why this is never one person’s task. You have state employees, boards of education and so on. They, as a group, can decide and you as a parent can weigh in. But at the end of the day what they say goes (or should). [/QUOTE] Private schools are not governed by Boards of Education. They are private institutions. If they would like state accredidation, however, there are minimum standards that they must meet. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/86 "2007-10-08T21:08:06Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] What constitutional freedom is at stake by regulating schools? [/quote] None, until some busybody proposes creating laws dictating that private, religious based schools must keep God out of the fucking classroom already. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Think you have an absolute right to free speech? To say whatever you like at any time? You do not. Free speech is in fact limited. Absolutely! I can criticize the President of the United States, or even the President of the local School Board, ad nauseum without fear of reprisal because freedom of speech is one of my basic freedoms. However, if I decide to criticize the President of my daughter’s school, they can boot my daughter out and there’s nothing I could do about it. Because one is a public institution and the other is a _private_ institution. Get it? > [@Whack-A-Mole](#): > > “Freedom” is not absolute. We accept many curbs on it. I think a school is an appropriate place for the state to peek into and have a role in regulating it. Because…? ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/87 "2007-10-08T21:17:16Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] To place God so centrally in a math class I think is inappropriate. If that is just how the curriculum reads and all they do is start class with a prayer then it is all circles and squares fine but it sounds as if they are throwing God in there a bit more than that (I could be wrong). [/QUOTE] So what you really want to do is tell them how they can teach their beliefs and where. You want to limit how and what they can teach, with no real reason but that it doesn’t suit you to have children learning religion as an integral part of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/88 "2007-10-08T22:45:41Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Colleges and universities in PA do not recognize that he has ever completed high school because there was no requirement that any sort of curriculum exist where he was home schooled. IME, it’s not that tough to convince a community college that you’ve gone to high school. I don’t recall having to prove that I did–IIRC I could’ve just made it up. I did give them transcripts from other colleges, but that was for an unrelated matter _after_ I’d been accepted. I think I just showed up one day, filled out the application form, and they said, “Congratulations, you’re a community college student.” Why they even care if you’ve graduated high school is beyond me–they have remedial classes that go all the way down to 9th grade reading and math levels, and all high school ever taught me was how to bullshit my teachers convincingly. As for taking the GED, why doesn’t he? I’m sure his “education” didn’t prepare him for it, but when I worked in a bookstore I saw all kinds of books that purport to give you all the knowledge you need to pass it. > [@catsix](#): > > Remember, not every private school was your prep-school where it’s easy to boast high numbers on college acceptance and scholarship if you kick out the under-performers. Who said I’ve ever gone to private school? I’ve never even heard of the one you mentioned. > [@catsix](#): > > What right to an education does a kid have? Every kid has the right to a public education. Those schools who want to deviate from the accepted protocol in public education in some way can do so by supporting themselves. Those parents who agree with a particular school’s model can pay for the privelege of subjecting their kids to it. Again, banning religion in private schools only serves to legitimize the man-in-the-sky crowd, raise tensions, and disgrace the Bill of Rights, the latter of which we’ve done quite enough of in this decade, the way I see it. I happen to agree with you about homeschooling, BTW, but you still haven’t convinced me that homeschooling is at all relevant to this thread. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Doing it is illegal. Talking about it is not. Free speech and all that. A right guaranteed by the Constitution. Actually, IIUC, the modern interpretation of the First Amendment says that the right to speech which intends to incite violence is not guaranteed. Former environmental activist Rod Coronado is currently in the federal hot seat for a speech where he answered an audience question about how to make bombs capable of blowing up construction sites, on the same day (IIRC) as the ELF blew up an environmentally-unfriendly construction site in La Jolla (about 15 miles northwest of where I sit). Nobody’s arguing about whether or not he had the right to teach people how to make bombs; the issue at hand in that case is whether or not he was specifically encouraging his audience to commit acts of violence. It’s a fine distinction, but an important one. Talking about the flammability of cats, in a detached manner, as a minor part of a biology lesson is legal (probably); promoting kitten torture is not. And it’s a ridiculous analogy anyway. Religious belief (of the kind practiced by Protestants outside of Topeka) is not anything like kitten torture. When come back, bring logic. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > They, as a group, can decide and you as a parent can weigh in. But at the end of the day what they say goes (or should). So IOW, private schools should be just like public schools? What’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/89 "2007-10-09T06:27:30Z")
[QUOTE=H3Knuckles] sorry **Whack-a-mole** , this rant is a lame duck. It’s a Baptist school. It’s a school expressly for teaching a religious ideology in it’s curriculum. [/QUOTE] ding, ding, ding ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/90 "2007-10-09T11:37:52Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] So IOW, private schools should be just like public schools? What’s the point? [/QUOTE] Not at all. They can have religion classes as part of their curriculum (as in a class dedicated to just that). They can have religious icons up all over the place. They can say prayers before class. None of which you can do in a public school. If in the religion class they want to use math as an example of the hand of God at work fine. Seems to me religion is a matter of faith and math is a matter of science. They are two wholly different things and I do not see faith having a place in a math class except perhaps saying a prayer before you take a test. Conflating the two seems an oil and water mixture…I do not see how it is at all helpful and would rather likely detract from the actual business of learning mathematics. I am surprised at people’s opinion here that there should not be _any_ oversight of education in this country. That parents seem to have an inalienable right to mess up their kids as they see fit. Is there no place the line should be drawn? If the KKK wanted to setup a school they can teach in biology how black people are sub-human? In history they can teach how the Nazis were on the right track with jewish people? Hey…as long as it is private they can do what they want right? The rest of us have no place for concern is the message I am getting here. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/91 "2007-10-09T11:46:58Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Not at all. They can have religion classes as part of their curriculum (as in a class dedicated to just that). They can have religious icons up all over the place. They can say prayers before class. None of which you can do in a public school. If in the religion class they want to use math as an example of the hand of God at work fine. Seems to me religion is a matter of faith and math is a matter of science. They are two wholly different things and I do not see faith having a place in a math class except perhaps saying a prayer before you take a test. Conflating the two seems an oil and water mixture…I do not see how it is at all helpful and would rather likely detract from the actual business of learning mathematics. I am surprised at people’s opinion here that there should not be _any_ oversight of education in this country. That parents seem to have an inalienable right to mess up their kids as they see fit. Is there no place the line should be drawn? If the KKK wanted to setup a school they can teach in biology how black people are sub-human? In history they can teach how the Nazis were on the right track with jewish people? Hey…as long as it is private they can do what they want right? The rest of us have no place for concern is the message I am getting here. [/QUOTE] I’ve thought about this a little and agree with you. There should be some educational standards required of private schools as well and your examples are good ones. What about religious universities? can they hand out valid degrees in science to anyone who says “God created the world in 6 days literally” At some point depriving your kids of some accepted level of education borders on neglect. We don’t allow religions to do anything they want under the freedom of worship clause. Why should we allow private religious schools to teach whatever they please without requiring them to adhere to some minimal standards as public schools are. Teach Math, Science, English reading and writing, adequately, and then you can add brainwashing 101. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/92 "2007-10-09T11:56:30Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Not at all. They can have religion classes as part of their curriculum (as in a class dedicated to just that). They can have religious icons up all over the place. They can say prayers before class. None of which you can do in a public school. If in the religion class they want to use math as an example of the hand of God at work fine. Seems to me religion is a matter of faith and math is a matter of science. They are two wholly different things and I do not see faith having a place in a math class except perhaps saying a prayer before you take a test. Conflating the two seems an oil and water mixture…I do not see how it is at all helpful and would rather likely detract from the actual business of learning mathematics. I am surprised at people’s opinion here that there should not be _any_ oversight of education in this country. That parents seem to have an inalienable right to mess up their kids as they see fit. Is there no place the line should be drawn? If the KKK wanted to setup a school they can teach in biology how black people are sub-human? In history they can teach how the Nazis were on the right track with jewish people? Hey…as long as it is private they can do what they want right? The rest of us have no place for concern is the message I am getting here. [/QUOTE] So you believe that all religion should reduce to a “God of the Gaps” theory? That people are not to be permitted to believe that the world operates as it does because a beneficient god created the natural laws under which the universe runs? That god may have created the various forms of life using the mechanisms of evolution? Yes, I agree that in theory there should be limits – just as a parent’s right to discipline a child does not extend as far as physical abuse, his right to educate a child according to the tenets of his belief has similar limits. And IMO the same process needs to be used: \* laissez faire\* until evidence of abuse is noted, then go after the perpetrator hammer and tongs. Because anything other than that is dictating what beliefs are permissible. In short, you’ve made yourself into a prime example of what you wish to prevent. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/93 "2007-10-09T12:07:49Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Is there no place the line should be drawn? If the KKK wanted to setup a school they can teach in biology how black people are sub-human? In history they can teach how the Nazis were on the right track with jewish people? Hey…as long as it is private they can do what they want right? The rest of us have no place for concern is the message I am getting here. [/QUOTE] If you are a true proponent of freedom, then yes, you must swallow the fact that Neonazis and the KKK and religious fundamentalists have a right to exist, and indoctrinate their children in that philosophy if they choose, without your interference. That doesn’t mean you can’t be _concerned_. And had you worded the OP differently, you’d have undoubtedly found support. However, you went straight from concern to “the government must stop these idiots!” And therein lies your error. Freedom extends to all, not just those who are in alignment with our personal beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/94 "2007-10-09T12:16:53Z")
You’ve pegged exactly what’s so weird about it, **Pundit**. \*\*Poly \*\* touched on it too. If you didn’t know explicitly where each was coming from, the arguments of **Whack-a-Mole** and the KKK-types are essentially identical. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/95 "2007-10-09T12:22:15Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] So you believe that all religion should reduce to a “God of the Gaps” theory? That people are not to be permitted to believe that the world operates as it does because a beneficient god created the natural laws under which the universe runs? That god may have created the various forms of life using the mechanisms of evolution? Yes, I agree that in theory there should be limits – just as a parent’s right to discipline a child does not extend as far as physical abuse, his right to educate a child according to the tenets of his belief has similar limits. And IMO the same process needs to be used: \* laissez faire\* until evidence of abuse is noted, then go after the perpetrator hammer and tongs. Because anything other than that is dictating what beliefs are permissible. In short, you’ve made yourself into a prime example of what you wish to prevent. [/QUOTE] I don’t take it as dictating what beliefs are permissible. I take it as not allowing religious beliefs to be a substitute for , and then called, a legitimate education. Where the lines are drawn is certainly up for debate but we have some moral obligation as a society to draw those lines rather than say, It’s a private school do whatever you want. Can they teach the world is flat and the the sun revolves around the earth and still claim to offer an education? In religion classes teach their beliefs sure. Teach that God created the earth in six literal days and Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day. Also teach that these are religious beliefs rather than science. When I was in high school my biology teacher refused to teach scientific views on how the universe began because of his religious convictions. At the time I thought, " Cool!One chapter avoided" As a parent I would be upset to discover this. btw, I think your suggestions in your first section are acceptable. What if the school decided to teach that evolution was a load of atheistic anti God propaganda? Would that be acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/96 "2007-10-09T12:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I’ve thought about this a little and agree with you. There should be some educational standards required of private schools as well and your examples are good ones. [/QUOTE] If a private school wants to receive accreditation, then they do have to meet that state’s minimum standards. I don’t imagine many colleges will accept a diploma from a non-accredited school. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/97 "2007-10-09T12:27:12Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] If a private school wants to receive accreditation, then they do have to meet that state’s minimum standards. I don’t imagine many colleges will accept a diploma from a non-accredited school. [/QUOTE] I’ve read a few articles in the last year about schools receiving dubious accreditation based on who they support politically rather than what they teach. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/98 "2007-10-09T12:38:21Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] If a private school wants to receive accreditation, then they do have to meet that state’s minimum standards. I don’t imagine many colleges will accept a diploma from a non-accredited school. [/QUOTE] How do home schooled children get in to college then? EDIT: Actually **WhyNot** posted earlier in this thread and made it sound like accreditation does not do much really (maybe I misread it). > [@WhyNot](#): > > There is NO regulation for home schooling in Illinois, and while there is some for private schooling, it is legally and specifically forbidden from mentioning content or curriculum. The state makes sure that a private school is more-or-less financially stable, owns liability insurance, has safe classrooms and delivers the education they promise, but they do not regulate what that education will consist of. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/99 "2007-10-09T12:46:28Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] How do home schooled children get in to college then? [/QUOTE] I could ask my next door neighbor, who home schooled all three of her children. The oldest graduated from a state university with a math degreee (magna cum laude, as a matter of fact). He is working as an actuary with an insurance company. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/100 "2007-10-09T12:54:47Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I could ask my next door neighbor, who home schooled all three of her children. [/QUOTE] That would be interesting to know. My guess is the kid takes the GED and the SAT and/or ACT and approaches colleges with that in hand. Will wait for your answer though to know…I’m just guessing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738.md?page=6)