# Keep God out of the fucking classroom already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2007, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738 "2007-10-06T07:36:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/121 "2007-10-09T16:11:51Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] But this is a school and not a church. [/QUOTE] No, it’s both. It’s a church school. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/122 "2007-10-09T16:15:07Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] How [God] has a place in a class on Geometry I do not see nor do I see how I am infringing on their rights in that case. [/QUOTE] I explained that to you very early on. The faithful see God at work in every aspect of existence. If this is a problem for you, it’s simple: don’t send your kids there. If it’s something you don’t understand, it’s still simple: you don’t need to. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/123 "2007-10-09T16:15:22Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Yeah it’s fine. If all it is is a fluffy piece of writing and has no bearing at all on the classroom then who cares? Saying a prayer before class is one thing. Crowbarring God into every aspect of Geometry is another (assuming they do it that way). [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what you mean…they can say that postulates are God’s creation, but not theroms? What is it you are concerned about, that they’ll spend more time talking about God than doing math? Well, maybe that’s a problem from the standpoint of not covering enough academic material, but as long as they do, what is the problem? You keep talking about “cramming” and “crowbarring” God into it, but I don’t get what you mean by that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/124 "2007-10-09T16:18:04Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] If your church wants to teach creationism fine. But this is a school and not a church. Biology and evolution are science, creationism is not. In a science class I expect students to learn science. If they also go to a bible study later and learn creationism fine. At the end of the day it is for them to decide. I do not think severely skewing the information kids get on evolution is doing them a favor. It is only supporting the parent’s notions of the way of things. God forbid our kids grow a mind of their own and make their own decisions. [/QUOTE] If that’s your opinion, fine. But that’s not the way things are (in the US), and I think you would find it impossible to regulate Religious schools that closely. You cannot prevent a religious school from teaching its religion. Not in a free society. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/125 "2007-10-09T16:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If that’s your opinion, fine. But that’s not the way things are (in the US), and I think you would find it impossible to regulate Religious schools that closely. You cannot prevent a religious school from teaching its religion. Not in a free society. [/QUOTE] Fair enough but teach religion in the religion classes and science in the science classes. Creationism has no place in a science class because it _is not a science_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/126 "2007-10-09T16:25:03Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Fair enough but teach religion in the religion classes and science in the science classes. Creationism has no place in a science class because it _is not a science_. [/QUOTE] Well, I wouldn’t want religion in a science class, but I also wouldn’t want to live in a society where the government told private schools what they had to teach, down to the level you are advocating. As others have said, don’t send your kids to that type of school. Otherwise, MYOB. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/127 "2007-10-09T16:27:11Z")
The funny thing about evolution, is that almost all of us learn about in High School. And what good does it do? About half the country thinks God created humans just as we are today, and that we did not evolve from earlier forms. I think it’s a shame, but what are you going to do about it? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/128 "2007-10-09T16:28:37Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I’m not sure what you mean…they can say that postulates are God’s creation, but not theroms? What is it you are concerned about, that they’ll spend more time talking about God than doing math? Well, maybe that’s a problem from the standpoint of not covering enough academic material, but as long as they do, what is the problem? You keep talking about “cramming” and “crowbarring” God into it, but I don’t get what you mean by that. [/QUOTE] Geometry is just that…geometry. There is no place or necessity for teaching about God in a geometry classroom. You can wholly separate the two and still have a perfect understanding of geometry. Teach about God in a class on religion. They are a private school and I am certainly ok with them providing courses on their religion. If in there they want to roll in things the kids have learned in other classes to show how God is in all things fine…great even (makes sense and gets the kids to revisit lessons from other classes). The school still has TONS of opportunity for teaching their religion even keeping God out of the math classroom. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/129 "2007-10-09T16:36:24Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] The school still has TONS of opportunity for teaching their religion even keeping God out of the math classroom. [/QUOTE] But they don’t want to keep God out of the math classroom. Why does that bother you? Heaven forbid (no pun intended) that people do what they want! ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/130 "2007-10-09T16:44:16Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But they don’t want to keep God out of the math classroom. Why does that bother you? Heaven forbid (no pun intended) that people do what they want! [/QUOTE] That’s what I can’t understand. If they are still learning the principles of math appropriately, what difference does it make if they think God created it or little green men from Mars created it or it just came out of nowhere? Keeping God out of math class isn’t appropriate for them, because their religion teaches that God created everything and is a part of everything. You can’t prove differently, so why should they care what you want them to do? (ETA: “You” meaning **Whack-a-Mole** , not **John Mace**.) ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/131 "2007-10-09T16:45:04Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > You keep talking about “cramming” and “crowbarring” God into it, but I don’t get what you mean by that. I’m pretty sure s/he means “Things that offend me should not exist, so that I don’t have to think about them”. Unfortunately, since s/he has no army, that’s just a pipe dream. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/132 "2007-10-09T16:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] God forbid our kids grow a mind of their own and make their own decisions. [/QUOTE] But that’s \*your \*notion of how people should act. (And one I share, of course.) Many people - perhaps MOST, worldwide, don’t share that viewpoint at all. They think children should be obedient and learn what’s taught to them and never question that and pass it down unchanged to their children in turn. Who gets to have their notion put into practice? (Hint: if we put yours into full practice, it includes allowing theirs.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/133 "2007-10-09T16:48:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] That’s what I can’t understand. If they are still learning the principles of math appropriately, what difference does it make if they think God created it or little green men from Mars created it or it just came out of nowhere? Keeping God out of math class isn’t appropriate for them, because their religion teaches that God created everything and is a part of everything. You can’t prove differently, so why should they care what you want them to do? (ETA: “You” meaning **Whack-A-Mole** , not **John Mace**.) [/QUOTE] There is a very strong anti-anti-evolutionary strain on this MB. It seems that some people really resent the fact that Americans are free not to learn about evolution. I remember getting into a long (and useless) debate with \*\*Diogenes \*\*when claimed that children had a constitutional right to be taught evolution. Not that they had the right to choose, but that the state had the right to force feed them, over their parents’, or even their own, wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/134 "2007-10-09T16:53:19Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] I’m pretty sure s/he means “Things that offend me should not exist, so that I don’t have to think about them”. Unfortunately, since s/he has no army, that’s just a pipe dream. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/135 "2007-10-09T17:05:20Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] There is a very strong anti-anti-evolutionary strain on this MB. It seems that some people really resent the fact that Americans are free not to learn about evolution. I remember getting into a long (and useless) debate with \*\*Diogenes \*\*when claimed that children had a constitutional right to be taught evolution. Not that they had the right to choose, but that the state had the right to force feed them, over their parents’, or even their own, wishes. [/QUOTE] Yes, I think I remember that thread. Personally, I’m with you…while I believe that learning evolution is generally part of a quality education, I don’t think it will ruin someone’s life not to learn about it (we are probably the first generation of people who have fairly reliably learned about it in school, and considering the knowledge of it is only around 100 years old, it seems that mankind can do pretty well not knowing anything about it at all). But, regardless, **Whack-a-Mole** seems to have a problem with mentioning God in the class room even when the subject in question is being taught “appropriately.” That is, the mere _mention_ of God should be verboten. The objection to this I truly cannot understand. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/136 "2007-10-09T17:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **John Mace** said: > We have freedom to practice religion in this country, and as long as you’re not hurting other people or breaking any laws, you get to worship as you please. That also means you get to raise your children in that religion, too. And what happens when the way you want to worship does harm your kids? Or do they not count as ‘other people’ by your definition? Does teaching them that dangling quartz over your head cures disease and that germs are just as imaginary as unicorns because your religious beliefs say so count as ‘hurting other people’? I don’t think anyone here has said that private schools should be illegal, just that there should be state oversight into private and home schooling to ensure that they are meeting some minimum standard with regard to the facts. Another question, to anyone who cares answer it, is what happens when a parent wants their kid in a religious indoctrination school, but the kid doesn’t want to be indoctrinated… > [@](#): > > **WhyNot** said: > I do actually think people can be perfectly functioning members of society without understanding evolution. I think you “in the interest of society” argument falls down after basic math and reading and the state-required constitutional exam, really. That is true provided ‘society’ does not include those individuals who are deprived of the opportunity to gain more than ‘basic math and reading’ skills, because I would argue that it certainly does harm _them_. > [@](#): > > **John Mace** said: > As others have said, don’t send your kids to that type of school. Someone in this thread mentioned the concept of a kid having a right to an education. I don’t think that right should be overruled by a parent’s desire to instill religion. When it comes to a kid’s right to an education and a parent’s right to make them practice religion, I will side with the kid’s right to an education every time. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/137 "2007-10-09T18:02:59Z")
Just for fun, I rewrote that course description from the OP, taking out all mention of it being a creation of God. Does anyone see a problem with this math class now? We have been all over the map here, discussing what children should & shouldn’t be allowed to learn in school, but the this course description seems pretty kosher to me (to borrow a phrase). What could possibly be objectionable about this _from an academic standpoint_? > [@](#): > > Students will progress in their understanding of mathematics. Students will understand the absolute consistency of mathematical principles. They will see order and precision as they review foundational concepts while being able to demonstrate geometric thinking and spatial reasoning. The study of the basics of geometry through making and testing conjectures regarding mathematical and real-world patterns will allow the students to understand the absolute consistency of geometric principles. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/138 "2007-10-09T18:06:25Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] But, regardless, **Whack-a-Mole** seems to have a problem with mentioning God in the class room even when the subject in question is being taught “appropriately.” That is, the mere _mention_ of God should be verboten. The objection to this I truly cannot understand. [/QUOTE] I think there is a notable difference between mentioning God in a classroom and making it a fundamental part of the daily curriculum in a Geometry class. I’m sorry of you cannot see a difference in that. And while knowing evolution is not necessary to most our lives I think knowledge for the sake of knowledge is worthwhile. What’s more who is to say what that child may grow up to be? We were all taught many things in school we no longer use in our day-to-day lives. But you teach them all that to have a well rounded knowledge base and to allow them to be prepared for whatever life brings them because at that age we have no idea what that may be. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/139 "2007-10-09T18:13:05Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] And what happens when the way you want to worship does harm your kids? Or do they not count as ‘other people’ by your definition? Does teaching them that dangling quartz over your head cures disease and that germs are just as imaginary as unicorns because your religious beliefs say so count as ‘hurting other people’? [/quote] No. I think it’s stupid, but I don’t think it’s ultimately hurting them. If a specific medical decision is hurting them, then we already have avenues in place to temporarily award medical custody to a court appointed person. > [@](#): > > I don’t think anyone here has said that private schools should be illegal, just that there should be state oversight into private and home schooling to ensure that they are meeting some minimum standard with regard to the facts. Whose “facts”? > [@](#): > > Another question, to anyone who cares answer it, is what happens when a parent wants their kid in a religious indoctrination school, but the kid doesn’t want to be indoctrinated… I’m faced with this one in the real world quite frequently, when minors come to me asking for instruction in neopagan religions without their parents’ consent. And my answer, for my own safety and theirs, is, “Sorry kid - here’s a few book titles and keep your head down, and look me up when you turn 18.” > [@](#): > > That is true provided ‘society’ does not include those individuals who are deprived of the opportunity to gain more than ‘basic math and reading’ skills, because I would argue that it certainly does harm _them_. No one has yet shown a real world case of a person being deprived of the opportunity to gain any sort of education. Delayed, perhaps. Made more difficult, perhaps. Placed the burden of responsibility on the (grown) child’s shoulders instead of the parents, perhaps. But this is certainly not the only area of life where parents have the freedom to make their kids’ lives more difficult. Hell, some parents make an art form of it. > [@](#): > > Someone in this thread mentioned the concept of a kid having a right to an education. I don’t think that right should be overruled by a parent’s desire to instill religion. When it comes to a kid’s right to an education and a parent’s right to make them practice religion, I will side with the kid’s right to an education every time. I think there’s a fallacy of the excluded middle here. Again, no one has shown that the school in the OP isn’t teaching math. The linked article doesn’t assert that they’re not teaching math. It asserts that they’re teaching math AND religion. ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738/140 "2007-10-09T18:25:43Z")
Be careful what you wish for. The way the country is going these days, if you established some kind of oversight board to dictate what private schools were allowed to teach, they’d be just as likely to favor creationism over evolution. 😉 I’ll teach my kids what I think is right, and everyone else can worry about their own, thank you very much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-god-out-of-the-fucking-classroom-already/421738.md?page=8)