Keep God out of the fucking classroom already!

The BBQ Pit
141

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
No. I think it’s stupid, but I don’t think it’s ultimately hurting them. If a specific medical decision is hurting them, then we already have avenues in place to temporarily award medical custody to a court appointed person.

[/QUOTE]

It can. This is only anecdotal admittedly but illustrates how it can occur.

My best friend in college was raised Christian Scientist. While he was not overtly religious himself he still tried to hold to some of that religion’s tenets.

He complained his leg was hurting him (we were roommates). I looked at it and it just seemed a bruise so we thought nothing of it. This continued for a few days and I started suggesting we go to the doctor. At first his refusal was just he didn’t think it was worth the bother but in time, as the problem actually worsened and I pushed harder, was that he simply did not believe in doctors and refused to go.

This went on longer and eventually I was fighting with him (verbally) and pushing hard for the doctor. He finally capitulated. He spent the next week in the hospital and they told him much longer and his leg likely would have needed amputation. If he never came in it would have killed him (osteo myelitis was what he had IIRC…been a long time now).

I’d call that real harm and he was an adult.

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[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]

I’d call that real harm and he was an adult.
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And it’s his right to refuse medical care. You yourself say he wasn’t very religious, and that he was an adult AND you imply he was college educated. He had all the tools he needed to, as you said, “grow a mind of [his] own and make [his] own decisions.” And he did just that.

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[QUOTE=WhyNot]
And it’s his right to refuse medical care. You yourself say he wasn’t very religious, and that he was an adult AND you imply he was college educated. He had all the tools he needed to, as you said, “grow a mind of [his] own and make [his] own decisions.” And he did just that.
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He did but only after my rather forceful urging. No way to know but my guess is his upbringing would have caused him to waffle longer were I not pestering him and quite likely would have cost him his leg. Had he been thoroughly indoctrinated he almost certainly would have died (turned out treatment was not too bad but it required medical treatment).

Had he been raised to view medicine and doctors as an appropriate avenue for treatment he would not have waited as long. I know some people who generally avoid medication and doctors but will, when something is obviously amiss, seek them out. My friend is now among that group. He will not take medication (aspirin or whatever) usually but will go there if it is apparent wishful thinking and praying are not enough (because of that experience…he told me that).

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I’ve got a friend who almost lost his leg from an infection…because he wouldn’t go to the doctor. He wasnt religious, just didn’t trust doctors and was a bit of a dumbass. He finally went because his girlfriend said she would leave him if he didn’t. You can be dumb without religion…

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[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
I think there is a notable difference between mentioning God in a classroom and making it a fundamental part of the daily curriculum in a Geometry class. I’m sorry of you cannot see a difference in that.
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And I’m sorry you can’t explain it to me better. Really, if you want me to see the difference…the fundamental difference that will affect whether or not they have a good understanding of math…pease explain to me what it is.

146

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
And I’m sorry you can’t explain it to me better. Really, if you want me to see the difference…the fundamental difference that will affect whether or not they have a good understanding of math…pease explain to me what it is.
[/QUOTE]

I guess it is turning out people who think there is some underlying mysticism to it all. Can they still know the formulas and pass tests? Sure. But ascribing math to God to me is muddying the waters. Could God create a Universe where 2+2=5? I cannot imagine that and I have a good imagination. Math is fundamental. Invoking God behind it I think takes away from the underlying basis that is math. It is not gremlins or little green men or invisible unicorns or God…it is math. It just is what it is with no need for recourse to an outside entity for it.

I cannot see how thinking otherwise is an improvement.

147

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
And it’s his right to refuse medical care. You yourself say he wasn’t very religious, and that he was an adult AND you imply he was college educated. He had all the tools he needed to, as you said, “grow a mind of [his] own and make [his] own decisions.” And he did just that.
[/QUOTE]

Actually thinking on this more I think you have this somewhat backwards. His religious upbringing was not his choice. Like everyone he was at the whim of his parents who raised him that way. It is not surprising he held views similar to theirs. Because of this he avoided doctors and only as an adult did he opt to break from how he was raised and even then reluctantly with potentially serious harm.

In this particular case you can point to his religious upbringing almost causing him serious harm. Not because he was dumb or willfully ignorant…merely a product of how he was raised.

To an extent this is what I am on about. Are we really to accept the premise that a parent can do as they will with their kid and the rest of us just have to shut up about it? I agree and understand that trying to force people to do otherwise has substantial problems all its own (who is to decide what is “right” among many others) but nonetheless I think the discussion is appropriate.

148

[QUOTE=catsix]
And what happens when the way you want to worship does harm your kids? Or do they not count as ‘other people’ by your definition? Does teaching them that dangling quartz over your head cures disease and that germs are just as imaginary as unicorns because your religious beliefs say so count as ‘hurting other people’?
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When there is real physical or psychological harm, then the state has a compelling interest to step in for the sake of the child. Teaching them Creationism doesn’t even pass the smell test by that standard. Teaching your kids that germs are imaginary is not, AFAIK, illegal. Not taking your kid to a hospital when he needs medical attention can be illegal, depending on the circumstances.

I personally have no problem with that, but I don’t see where the state has a compelling interest to make sure math is taught w/o mentioning God, or that evolution is taught instead of Creationism (in private schools). Evolution is great to learn about, and I have studied it extensively. But it’s no more necessary to get along in everyday life than reading “Hamlet” is.

Depends on what “indoctrination” is and depends on how old the kid is. The Catholic schools I went to as a kid could be considered “indoctrination”. We were taught that anyone not Baptized a Catholic was, at best, going to Limbo.

But the vast majority of kids have no idea what they want to learn or should learn until they are well past the stage where “indoctrination” can take place. And what if the kid is 13 years old, and wants a religious education* and his parents don’t? Do you side with the kid’s right then, or only when you agree with the choice?

*Let’s assume that he has access to that education and that monetary issues aren’t relevant.

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[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
I guess it is turning out people who think there is some underlying mysticism to it all. Can they still know the formulas and pass tests? Sure. But ascribing math to God to me is muddying the waters. Could God create a Universe where 2+2=5? I cannot imagine that and I have a good imagination. Math is fundamental. Invoking God behind it I think takes away from the underlying basis that is math. It is not gremlins or little green men or invisible unicorns or God…it is math. It just is what it is with no need for recourse to an outside entity for it.

I cannot see how thinking otherwise is an improvement.
[/QUOTE]
Except if you read the course description, they are specifically talking about the consistency of math…exactly what you want them to learn. Since that course description is what you pitted, why don’t you explain exactly what it was about how they represent math itself that is objectionable to you? Not the part about God creating it, but how they describe the principles of math. See, it doesn’t matter whether or not God could create a universe where 2+2=5, because he didn’t. They are not denying the reality of that equation. And, as I said earlier, you can’t prove that math doesn’t contain the divinity of God, anyway.

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Missed the edit window, but I wanted to add this…Whack-a-Mole, every time I ask you what is wrong with what the quoted course description in the OP you give a “what if” answer. I would really like you to directly address that specific course description, and tell me what harm you think it could do for a course to be taught exactly like that. Not what if they teach that God could have made math different (it doesn’t say that), not what if they teach creationism (it doesn’t say that), not what if they teach that blacks are inferior (it doesn’t say that). If you can’t explain it to me, then I guess I will assume that your problem is exactly what fetus said, that you gave the rolly-eyes to…that you want things that offend you not to exist.

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[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Actually thinking on this more I think you have this somewhat backwards. His religious upbringing was not his choice. Like everyone he was at the whim of his parents who raised him that way. It is not surprising he held views similar to theirs. Because of this he avoided doctors and only as an adult did he opt to break from how he was raised and even then reluctantly with potentially serious harm.

In this particular case you can point to his religious upbringing almost causing him serious harm. Not because he was dumb or willfully ignorant…merely a product of how he was raised.

To an extent this is what I am on about. Are we really to accept the premise that a parent can do as they will with their kid and the rest of us just have to shut up about it? I agree and understand that trying to force people to do otherwise has substantial problems all its own (who is to decide what is “right” among many others) but nonetheless I think the discussion is appropriate.
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How, specifically, do you propose we prevent something like that from happening?

But first, let’s dispel with the notion that parents can “do as they will with their kid”, because no one is advocating that. Most of us are just saying that you seem to be drawing the line based on your personal tastes, rather than on anything that is actually harmful.

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[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
And, as I said earlier, you can’t prove that math doesn’t contain the divinity of God, anyway.
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No one can. You are asking for a negative proof and that is fallacious.

God has no place in a class on math. As I said it implies a certain mysticism to it all which I think misinforms the students. Yes they may well memorize the appropriate equations and know how to calculate the circumference of a circle. I believe there is more to it than that though. A level of critical thinking I hope everyone would possess. If you see God in math because of lengthy discussions in your theology class fine. Having it hammered into you as gospel just cuz some teacher went on about it at length during Geometry denies that avenue.

I would hope people believe whatever they believe because they have thought about it and come to that conclusion on their own. Not because it was handed to them on a platter and they never thought to question it (or worse were actively discouraged from questioning it).

153

[QUOTE=John Mace]
How, specifically, do you propose we prevent something like that from happening?
[/QUOTE]
I’m interested in that, as well. I mean, John Mace here went to Catholic school, and he’s an atheist. I went to public schools and I’m a Catholic. I don’t know if your parents were religious, John Mace, but here in Chicago a lot of kids (non-Catholics, even) go to the Catholic schools because they can often get a better education. In the suburb where I’m from, the opposite was true, so my parents sent me to public school and made me into a Catholic on their own time. You could force everyone to send their kids to non-religious schools, and I don’t think it would make a lick of difference in how many religious people there are.

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[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
How would you “measure” the problem (of private schools not educating their children?)
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The same way public schools measure success and failure of their schools: via standardized tests and how they fare once they graduate.

[Quote=Whack-a-Mole]
I have to admit I am hard pressed to say how people running around believing (that God created the world) adversely affects others but I cannot shake the feeling it is wrongheaded and really not a good thing.
[/QUOTE]

You don’t have to toss your feelings of right and wrong out the door to accept the fact that it’s not in your realm of control.

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[QUOTE=John Mace]
How, specifically, do you propose we prevent something like that from happening?

But first, let’s dispel with the notion that parents can “do as they will with their kid”, because no one is advocating that. Most of us are just saying that you seem to be drawing the line based on your personal tastes, rather than on anything that is actually harmful.
[/QUOTE]

Specifically we prevent something like that by allowing kids a shot at an education that encourages critical thinking and not dogma. Encourage them to ask questions and ponder the answers.

And I grant I may be arguing from my “tastes” but I have stipulated that a solution (if there is one) would be a matter of debate among many. As much as I may like to think I have all the answers I am not so full of myself as to think that is true.

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[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I don’t know if your parents were religious, John Mace, but here in Chicago a lot of kids (non-Catholics, even) go to the Catholic schools because they can often get a better education.
[/QUOTE]

We went to Church every Sunday, and we all had crucifixes in our bedrooms. But the “better education” was more important than the religious aspect. I think it was more a holdover from when they were growing up, because public schools in most of the places we lived were usually pretty good. Once my parents figured that out, we started going to public schools. For me, that was Jr. High. But all of my elementary education was at Catholic Schools. I remember getting a grade in Religion (since it was one of the subjects they taught), and I always wondered how the kids felt who got a D or and F in that subject… :slight_smile:

157

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Specifically we prevent something like that by allowing kids a shot at an education that encourages critical thinking and not dogma. Encourage them to ask questions and ponder the answers.
[/quote]

“Allowing” or forcing? We “allow” that now. You have not demonstrated that learning math alongside religion does any harm to anyone. Frankly, I agree with you that it’s a silly thing to do (from my perspective), but it isn’t harmful in any meaningful way.

I think you will find that there is no reasonable way to do what you are asking and not violating the first amendment, or most people’s concept of what is reasonable for the government to do (with or without the 1st amendment).

158

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
No one can. You are asking for a negative proof and that is fallacious.
[/QUOTE]
You are right.

I guess you missed this part of the course description:

(Italics mine) I’m sorry, but you just haven’t shown where this takes away from understanding of math.

That is a fair thing to wish for, but I don’t see where you can force parents to agree with it.

159

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Actually thinking on this more I think you have this somewhat backwards. His religious upbringing was not his choice. Like everyone he was at the whim of his parents who raised him that way. It is not surprising he held views similar to theirs. Because of this he avoided doctors and only as an adult did he opt to break from how he was raised and even then reluctantly with potentially serious harm.
[/QUOTE]

So what’s the alternative? Ban religion entirely and live in Der Trihsistan? Majority rule to choose a State Religion ('cause that’d right now get us into Christendom right now in the US.)? You can’t say “keep religion over THERE and education over HERE” because to most religious people, elements of their religion are pervasive, and that’s how they want it, and they get a vote too.

And for every college friend you can anecdote about, I can match you an anecdote about a person put on needless steroids and dealing with their side effects for years before finding relief from nettles, or recommended surgeries avoided with the use of herbs and acupuncture, or statistics on hospital error and infection rates - infections which would never have taken hold had the person stayed at home and prayed. Should we ban hospitals and doctors because sometimes they cause more harm than other options?

Yes. Short of proven harm, yes.

I’m curious, if you were the one to write the minimum standards you’d like to see apply to this school, how you would write the course description. And if there’s anything you would force the school to include that isn’t in Sarahfeena’s edited version. 'Cause it seems to be that what you’re really advocating is not minimum standards for inclusion, but mandated topics of exclusion, and that’s just not acceptable in my book.

Minimum standards actually is acceptable to me, even with the dreaded horrors of standardized testing. I’d want to see them REALLY broadly written, without specific age limits (for example, I’m really impressed with the results in the Waldorf schools not teaching reading until grade 3). But if, as you say, you want MINIMUM standards, then how does ADDING God in geometry class not meet that?

Says you. As I already shared, my father found God through his studies of mathematics. (Not basic geometry, sure, but higher maths.)

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Not sure it matters but for disclosure I was raised Presbyterian (confirmed and all that). My parents are religious but not overtly so and to them our secular education was primary but we did Sunday School all the time. As an adult I have by personal choice become Agnostic. My parents give me a bit of grief over that but not unduly so…they just wish I went to church as they view it as very important in their lives and think it should be so in mine.