# Keep that white man out of my son's classroom! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569 "2003-07-29T01:26:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/21 "2003-07-29T06:26:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*Are African-Americans better off being here than they would have been by staying in Africa? I think so. > \*\* African-Americans today? I’m not sure I want to get into that. Africans back when slavery was in full swing? Highly debatable, IMO. At least being oppressed by starvation and poverty, you’re working for yourself, and not dependent on some foreign stranger who can beat you and rape your wife at a whim. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/22 "2003-07-29T06:49:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Moto \* > \*\*Also ill-informed and/or a liar. > > It’s pretty well established that some black people in Africa participared in and profited from the slave trade. > > \*\* Yeah, but wasn’t their _fault_. :rolleyes: Someone needs to tell this person that while some of these kids are the ancestors of slaves, some are quite possibly the ancestors of slave traders. By ‘this person’, I mean Miss Hogan, of course. The smiley is directed at her too. In case that wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/23 "2003-07-29T07:09:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*Are African-Americans better off being here than they would have been by staying in Africa? I think so. > > In a sick sort of way, the ancestors of slaves should actually be grateful that their ancestors paid a price that they don’t have to pay so that they have the privilege of complaining about something that never happened to them anyway. > > In other words, this lady doesn’t have a leg to stand on. It makes about as much sense as the reparations movement, i.e. none whatsoever. > > [sub]You may commence flaming now[/sub]. \*\* Well my probelem with such a statement is this. They are in all likelyhood better off NOW. Just maybe not from 1619 to 1865 or so. Actually I find this argument slighly dishonest for one other reason. Very few “African-Americans” are completely descended from Africans. Many are heavily European and/or American Indian. A good number are, by ancestry, more ‘Caucasian’ than anything else. But we have that old one drop rule, so people with ‘trace’ amounts of African ancestry are “black”. As a result there is no way these black Americans could have really completely “stayed” in Africa is there? I am mixed Indian and white. Perhaps some of my chromosomes owe some of my other ones an apology. But I can’t honestly wish that Columbus never came either. Also, if we really want to nitpick, slavery is not exclusive to “black history” even in the context of the Americas. In fact many “white” people underwent slavery in the last century in Europe or the former U.S.S.R. Some people still practice slavery in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![xcheopis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bc8723/32.png) [@xcheopis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xcheopis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/24 "2003-07-29T07:29:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*Someone needs to tell this person that while some of these kids are the ancestors of slaves, some are quite possibly the ancestors of slave traders. \*\* Descendents, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![rmbnxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@rmbnxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmbnxs)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/25 "2003-07-29T08:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \* > \*\ ***Ms. Hogan** , as quoted in the OP: > > Still a legitimate concern, and therefore so are the concerns of the parents. > > a) Subject matter does not exist as a set of truths that mean what they mean from a hypothetical “objective”, “unbiased” viewpoint. Subject matter has meaning, and meaning is “for a person”. When one approaches human subject matter, one can be studying “them” or one can be studying “us”, and the act of studying is intrinsically political. Not only _can_ you, not only _might_ you affect what you are studying, it is also a political act to deliberately avoid changing that which you study. > > b) same as a. > > c) same as a. > > d) same as a. Repeat until it informs your approach to all social studies. Read _The Everyday World as Problematic_ by Dorothy Smith and _Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee_ by Dee Brown. > It doesn’t make the parents _right_, but there is no _right_ position from which you can stand and say they are right or wrong. There are only concerns. You don’t get to appoint yourself “objective”. > > Now if the subject matter were, let’s say, _Peoples and Events of Classical Greece_ I think it unlikely that you’d have a contingent of worried Greco-American parents protesting because the instructor was of Italian or Turkish descent. I doubt that it would even be an issue if the course were being taught in the Mediterranean islands, although it might come up, who knows? We do know from the events in Kosovo and Bosnia and Serbia of the last few decades that sometimes these old conflicts have very current and very passionate resonances. > — Elizabeth Janeway, _Man’s World Woman’s Place_ 1971, pp. 135-6, 143-4) \*\* 😃 _Funny shit._ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/26 "2003-07-29T09:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > “How do you work through that when the person teaching it is the same type of person who did the enslaving?” The same type of person? God help us. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/27 "2003-07-29T09:56:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xcheopis \* > \*\*Descendents, perhaps? \*\* OK, I’m an idiot. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![FisherQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/28 "2003-07-29T10:08:26Z")
I remember reading this in my local paper. The article said that there was an experienced black teacher who had taught the course for years, but they were transferring the course to a white teacher. I can understand why parents would be unhappy about that. I’m a teacher myself, and while I know plenty about African-American literature, and would be happy to teach a course on the subject, I also know that many of my students will be more able to discuss the subject in depth with a black teacher, and so I would happily yield the course to a black teacher if a qualified one was available. There’s a qualified and experienced black teacher available who has taught the course in the past. Why change? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/29 "2003-07-29T10:24:45Z")
Possible reasons: (1) The black teacher is retiring (2) The black teacher wants to teach something else or hopefully… (3) Black and white were mere coincidences, since race was not a consideration in the assignment ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/30 "2003-07-29T11:06:25Z")
As to the Heidi Fleiss thing, at our school we had former drug addicts come in and talk to us about drug use, so sure, have her come teach about abstinance as long as she is teaching in accordance with the school curriculum. I see no conflict. (This is assuming Ms Fleiss would be speaking from a “reformed” pov). ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/31 "2003-07-29T11:52:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*Are African-Americans better off being here than they would have been by staying in Africa? I think so. > > In a sick sort of way, the ancestors of slaves should actually be grateful that their ancestors paid a price that they don’t have to pay so that they have the privilege of complaining about something that never happened to them anyway.\*\* I’ve heard this argument many times, invariably from white Americans. I always want to ask them if they’ve considered the converse; do _you_ consider _yourself_ better off for the past (enslaved) presence of Africans in your country. Implicit in your post is, “Well _they_ oughta be grateful to us anyhow”. In a sick sort of way. Do you reject any notion that America owes its current hegemonic position, in large part, to its use of slavery in building the nation. Or are you grateful to the slaves, and slave traders (black, white and Arab) for the legacy they’ve left you? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/32 "2003-07-29T11:55:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*OK, I’m an idiot. > 😛 \*\* It’s not your fault. You might be the ancestor of idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/33 "2003-07-29T12:26:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > **In a sick sort of way, the ancestors of slaves should actually be grateful that their ancestors paid a price that they don’t have to pay so that they have the privilege of complaining about something that never happened to them anyway.** I agree to a point. One could make the agrument that without slavery and colonization Africa might have stayed a nice place to live. Most of the problems in Africa now are caused by traditional enemies forced into the same area by lines in the sand and/or power vacuums. As I said, one could make the agrument, but I’m not the guy. My knowledge of African history is pretty poor. Any volunteers? > [@](#): > > **Actually I find this argument slighly dishonest for one other reason. Very few “African-Americans” are completely descended from Africans. Many are heavily European and/or American Indian. A good number are, by ancestry, more ‘Caucasian’ than anything else. But we have that old one drop rule, so people with ‘trace’ amounts of African ancestry are “black”. As a result there is no way these black Americans could have really completely “stayed” in Africa is there?** Are you sure, **syncrolecyne**? Sure my great grandmothers on both sides were Native Americans and my grandfather might have been part-European, but I’m sure that I’m mostly African descended. :Sigh: I dunno. This gets into the whole “Is there race?” can of worms and I, personally, would rather not go there. One could also agrue that a lot of that European blood wasn’t put there consentually, at least before this half of this century. Sure there were exceptions back then, Jefferson and Sally Hemmings being one, but just because a person is born of a race doesn’t make them part of the culture. That agrument could turn very bad also. Let’s turn to one thing we can all agree on. The woman in the OP is a total tool. I actually feel a bit bad for her being that ignorant. Reminds me of a lot of my relatives. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/34 "2003-07-29T13:38:14Z")
I’m not happy that my ancestors on one side of the family were Welsh coal miners, dirt poor, nearly slaves in their own right. They worked for starvation wages in bad conditions for long hours, and generally died young. This was the case on both sides of the Atlantic. I’m also not overjoyed that my ancestors on the other side of the family were Italian peasants, that finally gave up on their native land to become penniless laborers in America. My great-grandfather and great grandmother both died in their late twenties, shortly after their arrival here. My grandfather and his siblings were raised in foster homes. While I’m not overjoyed by this history, I’m not overly upset over it either. Many families have similar histories. The history of average people in the world has historically been a miserable one. It says something about this country that I and most of my relatives are now professionals and homeowners. We are in happy marriages for the most part, and usually die at a ripe old age after a pleasant retirement. We’ve come a long way from the old days. I hope this is the message of the class in question, though I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/35 "2003-07-29T13:54:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wolfian \* > \*\*Let’s turn to one thing we can all agree on. The woman in the OP is a total tool. \*\* I’ll go with that. [slight hijack] I am reminded of something I saw on the news a few years ago. I think it was on 11/8/2000. After a number of little old Jewish ladies were complaining that their presidential votes might not have been counted, a number of Republicans turned out in force to protest… something or other. I guess that they were unhappy that Bush didn’t win by a larger margin. And they were PISSED. Anyway, one particularly enraged black male shouted into the camera (paraphrased), “Democrats are evil! They supported slavery and they’re going to bring it back!.” Yeah. Gore’s entire platform was built on the promise of restoring slavery. :rolleyes: Assmunch. [/slight hijack] ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/36 "2003-07-29T14:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gest \* > **I’ve heard this argument many times, invariably from white Americans.** Actually, I heard a gentleman of color mention his dichotomous feelings about this the other day. (Can’t find a link, but will post it if I do.) On the one hand he felt bad for the suffering his ancestors went through. On the other hand he was very appreciative to be living in the USA instead of Africa today. He, and Airman Doors, never said that slavery was a GOOD thing but that there had been a positive, if totally unintended, consequence of his great-great-grandparents’ bondage. ---
**Author:** ![andymurph64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@andymurph64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andymurph64)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/37 "2003-07-29T14:05:35Z")
Agreed! All Black history teachers teaching European history (or any history dealing with predominately white people) should be fired immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/38 "2003-07-29T14:10:44Z")
Heh. In ninth grade, my Alabama History teacher was black. In 10th grade, my Western Civilization teacher was black. (He used to regale us with stories of his past life, when he was a chief of the Mandingo tribe.) Never (till now) occurred to me that they shouldn’t be teaching those subjects due to their race. I was stupid enough to believe they were teachers based on their merits. Just call me a crazy white boy. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/39 "2003-07-29T14:11:59Z")
**Airman Doors** : > [@](#): > > In a sick sort of way, the ancestors of slaves should actually be grateful that their ancestors paid a price that they don’t have to pay so that they have the privilege of complaining about something that never happened to them anyway. I think it’s the prospect of having someone with this perspective teach the class that bothers Ms. Hogan. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569/40 "2003-07-29T14:18:26Z")
How White is too White to teach in tis school? How does one determine one’s relative level of Whitness (Whitcosity? Whatever.) Does one drop of White blood make one White? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-that-white-man-out-of-my-sons-classroom/191569.md?page=3)