# Keep Your BS Out of the Schools
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 22, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693 "2006-09-22T11:38:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/21 "2006-09-22T16:11:23Z")
I was just contemplating what I would do if I had a child that wanted to join Scouts or Brownies/Guides. I was a Brownie and Guide (for 2 years) and I wasn’t even aware of any discrimination practises, but then again, that was during the 80s and I was a kid, so it wasn’t as much on most people’s radars as it is now. I remember being uncomfortable with the “god” parts of the prayers and promises… I was allowed to learn about all religions growing up, and I never was religious. I usually mumbled something “I promise, to do my duty to _mumble_ and my country” or whatever the wording was.
I just looked up the Canadian Forces Cadets program, but it is for older kids, ages 12-18. It actually looks like it could have been a lot of fun, though way more physically demanding than Scouts/Guides. The Canadian Forces have an open service policy for homosexuals, and it is a secular service. No registration fees, no dues, no requirement other than participating in fundraising (of course!), no obligation to any length of time or to join the Armed Forces later on, and kids can learn about sea, air and land activities. Without looking into it in more detail, it sounds like a good alternative, at least for older kids. What to do with the 6-12 year olds, though, I don’t know. [http://www.cadets.ca/intro\_e.asp](http://www.cadets.ca/intro_e.asp)
Thing is, in the USA with their DADT policy, even if they have something similar, it isn’t quite the same, is it?
Somewhat of a dilemma… I think I’m glad I don’t have kids and don’t really have to think about it!
---
### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/22 "2006-09-22T16:30:33Z")
I was not aware that the _Canadian_ Scouts/Guides discriminated against gays… do they? It seems to me that that would be a lot harder to do in Canada, given that gay marriage is legal in Canada and all.
---
### Author:  [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/23 "2006-09-22T16:48:14Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#):
>
> From the article “the Boy Scouts require a belief in God to become a member”, this is flatly untrue. “God” with a capital G refers to a specific deity, Scouting does not require members be Christian. The Pledge of Allegiance is as discriminatory as Cub Scouts are, if the number of people who bash Scouting would join me in fighting the Pledge, then I’d take all this complaining seriously.
>
> Chasing Scouts out of the schools pushes us into churches where these mindless attitudes are encouraged. My children have never been questioned about their religious nor sexual preference in Cub Scouts. The required sections of the book state things like “talk with your parents about your religious beliefs” or something like that. The parent signs it and the kid never thinks about it again. Contrast that with a pack that meets in the Church of the Holy Jesus Christ Who is the Savior of Your Pathetic Worthless Heathen Soul, just going to a meeting would piss me off.
> If you find a Cub Scout pack that pushes religion or asks 7 year olds if they’re gay, raise a stink! Me? My kids pack has atheists, Wiccans and X-ians that I know of (open believers, those who advertise on their cars) and has several pagans in leadership positions.
>
> Yeah, atheism is frowned on and that sucks. Wanna change it? Let your kid join and volunteer to be Den Leader.
Perhaps, as stated in the OP, **fessie** ’s problem has more to do with the fact that it’s “A DISCRIMINATORY ORGANIZATION.” Rather than just an affront over religion. And you know, some people choose to change things by not participating. Kind of hitting a big conglomerate where it hurts… in the wallet.
---
### Author:  [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/24 "2006-09-22T16:53:08Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> I didn’t see in the link where it said the kids were required to attend. Did I miss it? If they are required to attend, then I’m with you on this one.
> BSA = a corporation? I didn’t know that…
At the time, they were required to attend. In the ten years that the case has wound through the courts, the policy has changed, mainly due to time and teaching concerns.
[
> [@](#):
>
> In 1996, the Boy Scouts made a lunch-hour presentation to recruit new boys]([Search](http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/editorial/115810892793060.xml?oregonian?ede&coll=7)) at Harvey Scott Elementary, where Powell’s son, Remington, was a first-grader. Such recruitment drives during school hours, often assisted by school officials and requiring all children to be present, were common at that time.
---
### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/25 "2006-09-22T17:01:29Z")
**BSA most certainly DOES push a religious element**. Beginning as early as Tiger Cub the literature explicitly states that spirituality is necessary to the formation of a good, sound kid. Judeo-Christian spiriuality? Not necessarily, but the literature defaults to verbiage common to that tradition.
There is a surprising degree of flexibility in how that plays out. Best way to control it is to participate in the pack as a leader. I think officially BSA doesn’t like fags, but on the local level your leadership can choose to rebel and let them come along on the camping trips with the moral boys. The program has a lot of good stuff in it for kids, it’d be a shame to keep your kids out just because you’re afraid they won’t get to mix with queers and atheists.
But still, the BSA shouldn’t be able to require any time away from class–that just means that the school administration is either filled with pussies or shortsighted biggots
---
### Author:  [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/26 "2006-09-22T17:15:14Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#):
>
> Bahá’í, Hindu, Islam, Meher Baba, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Unitarian-Universalist, and Jewish are all officially recognized, and although I don’t know what most of those believe, I’m fairly sure that Hindu’s don’t follow Jesus.
>
> The Pledge is as bad as (or worse than) Scouting, public school children don’t recite the Scout Law every morning. Let’s fix the institutionalized christianity in our government… No, better yet, lets just refuse to vote because Dubya is x-ian! That’ll show 'em!
What the hell are you going on about here? Is your thinking always this muddled, or are you drunk? Or are you just plain stupid? What does any of this have to do with George Bush? Why should an organization that officially discriminates against atheists and gay people be permitted to recruit or hold meetings in our public schools? Why is _my_ tax money thus going to support an organization like this, which wouldn’t even have me as a member?
The Scouts may not endorse one religion over another, but they explicitly declare that atheists are not fit to be members:
> [@Boy Scouts of America](#):
>
> The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.” The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members.
(From [here](http://www.bsalegal.org/dutytogo-155.htm), quote taken from [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies) as the Scouts’ legal issues website seems to be experiencing trouble right now.)
The Scouts have kicked out atheists because of their opinions. Further, they officially don’t permit gay people to be members (either as scouts or as adult members of the organization.) They’ve kicked gay people out quite a number of times - [in one case](http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/08/scouting.html), because they found a copy of a high-ranking employee’s bill from a gay resort.
---
### Author:  [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/27 "2006-09-22T17:24:07Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> Wait–the Scouts don’t allow gays in anymore? That would’ve been news to many of the guys in my troop, when Scouting seemed almost like a recruiting tool.
Oh, you can be gay and be in Boy Scouts–as long as you never tell anyone and stay firmly in your closet. My ex was a Scout, Order of the Arrow, adult leader, etc., so I got to know a lot of scouts. A good friend of his from his teen years, also involved in Scouts to every degree including troop leader for many years (and an incredibly popular one at that–if he had every kid who wanted to join his troop the guy would’ve had a small village to contend with!) had to resign from Scouts because he had the effrontery to wish to be upfront about the man he loves. Then there’s the ingrained God thing, and the fact that the BSA and GSA flatly refuse to combine forces (which would reduce significantly the redundant expenditures and duplicated resources–along with redundant management positions which I assume is the big objection) to form one gender neutral scouting group and what you have is one big monument to exclusionism.
How can one be Trustworthy if one is forced to deny one’s essential character in order to be a Scout?
How can one be Brave and not stand up for one’s beliefs or lack thereof?
The whole organization is kind of ugly when you get into what they stand for and the weaselly way they force people to conform and I totally understand a parent’s reluctance to support them.
---
### Author:  [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/28 "2006-09-22T17:47:04Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#):
>
> But I know what you mean. Y’all were sitting around a campfire crooning “Kumbaya” and maybe the guy gave a little prayer, so it felt religious. However, FWIW, 4-H is, and has always been, a secular group, a [501(c)(3) tax exempt group.](http://www.4husa.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index&myfaq=yes&id_cat=4)
Being a 501(c)(3) organization has nothing to do with being secular.
---
### Author:  [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/29 "2006-09-22T17:54:36Z")
Sorry my link wasn’t more informative, I’d read a couple of stories before deciding to post a quick OP – and I’m glad to learn that the school district in question changed its policy to make attendance optional in the ten years since the suit was first filed. I hope other districts have done the same.
Personally, I strongly dislike corporate influence in schools, period. Pepsi in the lunchrooms, “Channel One” news feeds, Boy Scouts pitching over lunch – it’s a bad idea. School’s where kids need to learn critical thinking and skepticism, and should not be yet another venue for pitching products.
Interesting, too, to read that troops vary widely in how they apply BSA policies - I don’t know if that means it’s unfair to criticize the locals for what’s being done on the national level, or if the locals are the forefront of change.
---
### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/30 "2006-09-22T18:01:45Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#):
>
> From the article “the Boy Scouts require a belief in God to become a member”, this is flatly untrue. “God” with a capital G refers to a specific deity, Scouting does not require members be Christian. The Pledge of Allegiance is as discriminatory as Cub Scouts are, if the number of people who bash Scouting would join me in fighting the Pledge, then I’d take all this complaining seriously.
I was never in the Scouts; I gather you were. Did y’all sit around the campfire hitting yourselves in the heads with hammers or lot or what?
Let me see if I’m following here:
The Boy Scouts aren’t discriminatory because they don’t require belief in “God with a capital G”, which _would_ be discriminatory because “God with a capital G” refers specifically to the Christian God. The Scouts are thus no more discriminatory than the Pledge of Allegiance, which of course _includes_ “God with a Capital G” (it’s sure as fuck not written [“one Nation under god”](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000004----000-.html)), which by your logic means that the Pledge of Allegiance and the [National Motto](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode36/usc_sec_36_00000302----000-.html) essentially say “One Nation under Jesus Christ” and “In Jesus Christ We Trust”. And when BSA [says](http://www.scouting.org/relationships/chaplains/index.html) that it “maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God” then, according to you (because they write God with a capital G) this should really be parsed as “no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to Jesus Christ”.
Or maybe your statement “‘God’ with a capital G refers to a specific deity, Scouting does not require members be Christian” is just a random, hammer-induced non sequitur. Who the fuck said the Boy Scouts require their members to be Christian? According to the Boy Scouts, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus can all be good citizens–but not atheists.
This, of course, is exactly the sort of All-American pseudo-“nonsectarian” atheist-bashing that’s led people to [mount public campaigns and lawsuits to remove God from the Pledge of Allegiance](http://www.restorethepledge.com/); you might have noticed the [huge public controversy this caused](http://www.time.com/time/pow/article/0,8599,266658,00.html), except that your Boy Scout Related Neurological Syndrome (AKA “hammerhead”) seems to have impaired your ability to read newspapers and magazines and such.
---
### Author:  [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/31 "2006-09-22T18:09:26Z")
I was a Brownie and Girl Guide as a child in Canada, and my husband was only a few badges short of becoming an Eagle Scout here in America. We allowed our son (against our better judgement) to be a Boy Scout for one season only, and that was due to that fact that there were no children his age in our neighbourhood for him to play with. When we withdrew him, we xplained to him exactly why we withdrew him. This was as a nine-year-old boy, and he completely understood.
So if your kid asks WHY, point out to him your gay friends, and tell them that the Boy Scouts don’t that they’re good enough; and that you don’t think the BSA is good enough for your family.
---
### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/32 "2006-09-22T18:11:06Z")
> [@fessie](#):
>
> I don’t know if that means it’s unfair to criticize the locals for what’s being done on the national level, or if the locals are the forefront of change.
Ultimately any such organization is at the mercy of “the local level.”
Take my pack, for instance. It’s got some pretty liberal and laid back leadership. We do the flag ceremonies and community involvement stuff because we feel it’s good to give the kids a sense of responsibility and accountability to and for their community. And since our community is part of the USA, it makes sense to foster a sense of duty to THAT organization as well. And no, it does NOT mean blindly waving the flag and giving a smiling “Heil Bush” at every opportunity.
My pack is also stuffed with kids from reasonably wealthy families. If BSA decided they wanted to give us a good probing to ferret out fags and atheists, they’d find themselves in a very well-funded and outspoken hornet’s nest of horrible publicity. They don’t want that. Sure it’s technically a private organization and they have the right monitor their membership…but every pack they destroy creates another potential for a rival group with more a moderate and modern philosophy. **Campfire** , as I understand it, already is such an organization but it’s been having trouble–not sure why. Probably lack of good ambitious leadership. Or maybe God doesn’t like them so much.
---
### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/33 "2006-09-22T18:12:26Z")
> [@Mtgman](#):
>
> You think that’s bad? I’ve got the Girl Scout versions memorized too, and I was never a Boy Scout OR a Girl Scout. The Boy Scouts rejected me because I tried to join the Girl Scouts first. Hey, I knew where the action was.
“I was a Boy Scout once, and a Brownie, till some brat got scared.”
---
### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/34 "2006-09-22T18:16:44Z")
> [@gigi](#):
>
> “I was a Boy Scout once, and a Brownie, till some brat got scared.”
Guh-FAW!!!
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/35 "2006-09-22T18:26:02Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> Wait–the Scouts don’t allow gays in anymore? That would’ve been news to many of the guys in my troop, when Scouting seemed almost like a recruiting tool.
Do they not allow gays to join or is it that they don’t allow gay adults to be Scout Leaders? Do you get kicked out of the Scouts if you come out? Since most guys join pre-puberty, I susptect many gays don’t even know they’re gay yet.
---
### Author:  [@auRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auRa)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/36 "2006-09-22T18:27:30Z")
Man, once again I’m just so glad I belong to the co-ed, don’t-really-give-a-crap-about-what-religion-people-are-although-technically-I-suppose-we-should-teach-kids-about-their-religion-it’s-kind-of-written-in-the-tenements-I-guess, gay-or-straight?-who-cares-now-knowing-how-to-handle-a-group-of-hyperenergetic-9-year-olds-that’s-a-different-story Guides and Scouts of Finland. It seems to make everything so much easier. 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/37 "2006-09-22T18:28:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Do they not allow gays to join or is it that they don’t allow gay adults to be Scout Leaders? Do you get kicked out of the Scouts if you come out? Since most guys join pre-puberty, I susptect many gays don’t even know they’re gay yet.
From what the Wikipedia page says, yeah, they’ll kick out both scouts and leaders who are gay. Even if scouts join pre-puberty, they generally continue to be members afterwards.
---
### Author:  [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/38 "2006-09-22T18:33:42Z")
**auRa** - I dunno what it is about the Boy Scouts, either; Girl Scouts have never grappled with these issues.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/39 "2006-09-22T18:36:41Z")
> [@Excalibre](#):
>
> From what the Wikipedia page says, yeah, they’ll kick out both scouts and leaders who are gay. Even if scouts join pre-puberty, they generally continue to be members afterwards.
I bet it varies from troop to troop, though. From what I remember, it isn’t all that centralized. Who knows, though-- maybe these days they send someone with really good gaydar out from headquarters every few months to smoke 'em out!
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/40 "2006-09-22T18:49:58Z")
> [@fessie](#):
>
> Interesting, too, to read that troops vary widely in how they apply BSA policies - I don’t know if that means it’s unfair to criticize the locals for what’s being done on the national level, or if the locals are the forefront of change.
I suspect that this is one reason why there appears to be a disconnect between the position of **Bobotheoptimist** and the rest of us. It appears that his particular troop, (perhaps even his council) is fairly tolerant.
When I was in Scouts in the early 1960s, my troop was sponsored by the local Catholic parish. We attended a number of church functions, including weekend retreats. When we went camping, the Methodist kid was given the option of either coming along with us or being dropped off at a local Methodist church for their services. Surprisingly (for that period) we also had a kid who was openly atheist. I do not recall any leader hassling him or him mentioning any grief for his position. When we were on campouts, on Sunday morning he was hauled into town with the rest of us when we went to mass, (rather than leaving a 12-year-old alone at a campsite 150 miles from home), but he was not compelled to come into the church or participate in the services. If a priest came out to celebrate mass at the campsite, the kid was expected to refrain from pulling any early teen boy pranks during mass, but he was not expected to attend.
If **Bobotheoptimist** ’s troop, or even council, demonstrates this sort of tolerance for divergent beliefs, I can see why it would appear to him that the Scouts were not the hostile organization that the rest of us perceive.
Unfortunately, the BSA has made it an issue to expel atheists and homosexuals and has gone to court to protect their right to do so. While I hope that **Bobotheoptimist** ’s group continues to practice a more open-minded brand of Scouting, I also hope that the regional leaders do not discover what his group is doing, lest his council or troop suffer the hassle of being told to expel members. (If Scouting is going to continue, I would just as soon see some tolerance displayed so that tomorrow’s leaders display a bit more openmindedness.)
Regardless how his troop is managed, however, it is pretty clear from the official positions of the national organization which has [gone to court to enforce bans on atheist participation](http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp) that tolerance is strictly a local virtue.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693.md?page=1)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693.md?page=3)