# Keep Your BS Out of the Schools
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 22, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693 "2006-09-22T11:38:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/41 "2006-09-22T19:04:08Z")
Well, I don’t know that the Denver Area Council is all that, and I’m sure there’s a huge difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts, but pitting the BSA for a Supreme Court decision regarding a practice that largely has been abandoned seems a trifle excessive to me.
Pit the fucking Supreme Court for not understanding what the Constitution says, pit the fucking bible-thumpers in government for packing the courts with people who think the 10 Commandments and the Bill of Rights are the same thing, pit the dickwad churches who don’t pay taxes but give free meeting rooms to scouts and then push their agenda on little kids.
Then again, I’m in a fairly laid-back area (previous rant aside) - halfway between Denver and Boulder. I’m sure I’d have a different opinion if I lived in the bible belt.
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### Author:  [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/42 "2006-09-22T19:14:08Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#):
>
> Well, I don’t know that the Denver Area Council is all that, and I’m sure there’s a huge difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts, but pitting the BSA for a Supreme Court decision regarding a practice that largely has been abandoned seems a trifle excessive to me.
What is your evidence that any of this has “largely been abandoned”?
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### Author:  [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/43 "2006-09-22T19:45:06Z")
> [@Excalibre](#):
>
> What is your evidence that any of this has “largely been abandoned”?
Primarily the article linked to by the OP (the same one which I somehow missed “Oregon Supreme Court” and read it as “US Supreme Court” :smack: ).
**MEBuckner** - Why do I have to be consistent? This is the pit!
Actually, I was complaining about the article and that the BS Oath/Law and policies are blatantly contradictory (that’s my story and I’m sticking with it, for now)
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### Author:  [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/44 "2006-09-22T19:58:40Z")
My understanding is that UU is no longer “acceptable” because we don’t hate gays.
Yes, you are right - individual troops can be far less stringent than the national. But IMO that doesn’t make the clearly expressed organizational discrimination against atheism and homosexuality any less distasteful.
We found this to be a very difficult conundrum. The BSA offered various programs that my son was very interested in, for which there was no aparent substitute. And the local leaders were extremely tolerant. One of the many tough choices we made as parents. Even tho the troop was tolerant, that doesn’t mean the district or council necessarily was. We thought long and hard about how he would respond to any religious questions during his Eagle board of review. Fortunately, they didn’t come up. And to his credit, when the troop asked him what suggestions he might make to the troop/organization, he said they should drop allow gays and atheists, as those kids would get a lot and contribute to scouting. And his troop leaders agreed with him.
I guess folks might criticize us for giving our kid instruction in situational ethics…
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/45 "2006-09-22T20:01:05Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#):
>
> Pit the fucking Supreme Court for not understanding what the Constitution says, pit the fucking bible-thumpers in government for packing the courts with people who think the 10 Commandments and the Bill of Rights are the same thing, pit the dickwad churches who don’t pay taxes but give free meeting rooms to scouts and then push their agenda on little kids.
But not the people who went to court to fight for their right to discriminate?
You’re a moron.
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### Author:  [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/46 "2006-09-22T20:14:58Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> You’re a moron.
It does seem that way.
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/47 "2006-09-22T20:17:43Z")
I wonder if all these schools willing to allow the Boy Scouts to recruit would also be willing to allow youth groups which banned theists or expelled members for expressing attraction to the opposite sex. Would those of you who support allowing the Scouts into schools object to such youth groups having equal access?
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### Author:  [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/48 "2006-09-22T20:25:16Z")
I was in the Cub scouts and the Boy scouts as part of my activities with the Morman church. I stopped going to church when I was 16 and stopped going to scouts when I was 18. After I stopped BSA’s discrimination issues were brought to the forfront because of court cases. I fully support their right to be a private christian organization. Which they do claim to be. They can descriminate in any way their beleifs dictate.
Because of their beleifs however, I feel they have no place in schools or other state owned places. As do many others. This has hit the BSA very deeply in the pockets and has had much effect on there regualr meeting grounds. Recently they were told the could not hold their annual events on military grounds because they are a discrimitory organization(speficaly against aithiests). Some chapters have declaired they will not follow the BSA regualtions concerning gays or athiests in order to avoid such complications. The BSA at the national level is hesitating on what to do about that.
I prefer not to attend or help in any way organizations that discriminate. I enjoy hearing someone that takes part in the scouts but teaches things differently then the rules dictate. I am conflicted on weather that is unethical behaviour or not.
For years my grand father then my father then myself have handled the water needs of nearby boyscout camps. Being in the well and water pump business. We charged nothing for our time and made no money on equipment. Since the BSA basicaly decided to defend their right to discriminate against me. This is a service they no longer receive.
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### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/49 "2006-09-22T20:37:17Z")
> [@fessie](#):
>
> **auRa** - I dunno what it is about the Boy Scouts, either; Girl Scouts have never grappled with these issues.
Girl Scouts Grappling. Hmmmm. I smell a pay-per-view.
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### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/50 "2006-09-22T20:43:17Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#):
>
> I wonder if all these schools willing to allow the Boy Scouts to recruit would also be willing to allow youth groups which banned theists or expelled members for expressing attraction to the opposite sex. Would those of you who support allowing the Scouts into schools object to such youth groups having equal access?
Hmmm…I wonder if I could get NAMBLA to recruit at our elementary school…
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### Author:  [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/51 "2006-09-22T20:51:38Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#):
>
> I wonder if all these schools willing to allow the Boy Scouts to recruit would also be willing to allow youth groups which banned theists or expelled members for expressing attraction to the opposite sex. Would those of you who support allowing the Scouts into schools object to such youth groups having equal access?
Since I’ve been the loudest moron around here, I’ll take it. Fuck yes! If a school tried to stop the American Atheists, the Covenant of the Goddess, or the… um, a group that expelled straight people, I’d be even more pissed off! I fully support discriminating against NAMBLA and the KKK, however, and I don’t apologize for being inconsistent.
I don’t think I’ve said that I support allowing Scouts into the schools, exactly. Well, not barring them any more than any other non-school related doohicky and sending home flyers a couple times a year, but nothing else I’ve said has made any sense so I’m going to assume that I’ve gone farther than that.
My (apparently hyper-liberal) pack pays for use of the school rather than using a church for free. The kids build model rockets and carve bears out of soap. This is what local scouting is. National asswipes trying to ruin it for the kids are just that - asswipes trying to ruin it for the kids.
Sure, I’m basing my opinions on direct observation of a very limited sample, so maybe I’m in the only non-hateful city in the US. Does the sun shine every day and poop flowers anywhere else? I live at the corner of Happy Road and Tolerance Court.
**Dinsdale** , last I heard, the Cubs dropped UU but I think Boy Scouts still or again have them ([cite](http://www.uuscouters.org/awards.htm))
“UUSO religious emblem for Scouts and Venturers ages 11 - 17.
Cub Scout Award - In development.
Adult Award - Under consideration.”
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### Author:  [@StinkyBurrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StinkyBurrito)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/52 "2006-09-22T21:02:44Z")
Firstly, I am gay, not religious, and an Eagle Scout. Scouting, although there is some controversy about its policies, was one of the cornerstones of my development into an adult. If I could go back and do it again I would. The benefits out weigh the negatives in my opinion. But that is kind of off topic.
I am of the opinion that part of school is learning about the outside world and not just what goes on in the classroom and in books. I think kids should be exposed to all sorts of different outside activities. Kids should realize that there are organizations that they can join, but that not all of them suit any individual. I think any and all organizations should be able to come into the school and present themselves. I think it should be in the form of a ‘fair’ or an ‘expo’ or something and should be after school and not required.
This way the kids that feel that they might like baseball can find out that there is such a thing as Little League that they could join. Or the kids that might like science can find out that there is a model rocket club that would appeal to them. Kids that are looking for a religion could see that there are religious institutions out there that they may fit into. And the kids who’s philosophies line up with scouting can be exposed to that as well. Equal opportunity.
It’s a big world out there and the kids are going to have to learn about it at some point. Isn’t that what school is for - learning about the world around you?
Anyway, Friday is over and the weekend is here. Fair thee well fellow dopers. Until next week.
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### Author:  [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/53 "2006-09-22T21:19:37Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#):
>
> **Dinsdale** , last I heard, the Cubs dropped UU but I think Boy Scouts still or again have them ([cite](http://www.uuscouters.org/awards.htm))
> “UUSO religious emblem for Scouts and Venturers ages 11 - 17.
> Cub Scout Award - In development.
> Adult Award - Under consideration.”
My son got his a couple of years back. My (dim) recollection is that we kinda did things on the sly, as the award either had been or was about to be eliminated. But my memory may well be faulty, or perhaps we overreacted to rumored developments that may never have come to pass.
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### Author:  [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/54 "2006-09-22T21:35:30Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#):
>
> My son got his a couple of years back. My (dim) recollection is that we kinda did things on the sly, as the award either had been or was about to be eliminated. But my memory may well be faulty, or perhaps we overreacted to rumored developments that may never have come to pass.
More likely they did drop it for some BS (ha!) reason and enough of you UU’s are around that they are bringing it back. I really think the the organization is toning down their crap, but again maybe that’s just around here.
My kids both have the [Over the Moon](http://www.cog.org/projects/overmoonsm.jpg) award from Covenent of the Goddess. BSA bigshots would probably like to boot us if they found out, and then I’d be calling me a moron too. I doubt my kids are going on to Boy Scouts which is apparently where they get really cranky about atheists and gays and etc., so we’ll bail long before we see the dickheadedness.
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### Author:  [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/55 "2006-09-22T23:54:03Z")
**Bobotheoptimist** , no matter what the [Cub] Boy Scouts really are, they need more members/leaders like you. Good on you for raising your children (and by extension, that of the troop) so thoughtful.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/56 "2006-09-23T00:26:25Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#):
>
> Being a 501©(3) organization has nothing to do with being secular.
I’d nonetheless be surprised if 4-H was overtly religious. It is administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which means legally it really _can’t_ be.
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### Author:  [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/57 "2006-09-23T00:46:24Z")
> [@faithfool](#):
>
> **Bobotheoptimist** , no matter what the [Cub] Boy Scouts really are, they need more members/leaders like you. Good on you for raising your children (and by extension, that of the troop) so thoughtful.
Oh, c’mon now, I was working on earning my first pitting!
Thanks. It really does sicken me the way the BSA leadership acts sometimes. Not really a good reflection of what they claim to teach, I think. Sure wish there was an alternative, around here sometimes…
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/58 "2006-09-23T01:12:52Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#):
>
> I was in the Cub scouts and the Boy scouts as part of my activities with the Morman church. I stopped going to church when I was 16 and stopped going to scouts when I was 18. After I stopped BSA’s discrimination issues were brought to the forfront because of court cases. I fully support their right to be a private christian organization. Which they do claim to be. They can descriminate in any way their beleifs dictate.
Whatever you say about them, they are not a Christian organization. I was in the scouts in the '60s, and eventually my father got fed up with our troop and started one sponsored by the Men’s club of our Temple. It was all Jewish, but we would have happily let anyone in.
My old troop met at my elementary school, and we definitely recruited at a mandatory Assembly. I don’t know if they have such things.
As for them not caring any more, the City of Berkeley cut its subisidy of a mooring site used by Sea Explorers on grounds of discrimination. I got this mass mailing of a rant from the scouts, whining about how their religious freedom was being violated because Berkeley refused to support their bigotry.
My father was scoutmaster of the UN troop 55 years ago - and they removed all references to god from their material. (The last item changed from A Scout is Reverent to A Scout Supports the UN Charter.) So this is a BSA thing. Anyone know if the original, British, scouts are bigots?
I’m glad I have girls, and so never had to deal with this. As far as I can tell, they became fascists when they moved from New Jersey to New Mexico.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/59 "2006-09-23T02:43:56Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#):
>
> A troop leader (and also presumably the dad of one of the members) walking into the classroom and saying, “Hey, come join Cub Scouts!” isn’t _quite_ the same thing as “holding an informational meeting that the kids are required to attend.” 😉 I agree the bracelet thing was stoopid, but it’s not an ordeal for a kid to have a plastic bracelet attached which–horrors!–can only be removed by scissors. Like the first-grade teacher didn’t have a pair of scissors and could have removed the bracelet immediately from any little atheist’s wrist that began to bubble and char like Baby Dracula? “It burns! It burns! Aiiiyeeeeee…”
>
> [snerk]
So if a Wiccan leader came to school and put bracelets on all the little kids saying, 'Hey, roundup for the Wiccan Scouts! Sign your kid up today!" everybody would be cool with that … right?
My personal opinion is that you would hear the howls of outrage from social conservatives on the fricking MOON.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2006, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-bs-out-of-the-schools/373693/60 "2006-09-23T03:24:55Z")
> [@faithfool](#):
>
> Is there some alternative to the Boy Scouts? Perhaps something that would be a somewhat equal in terms of the fun stuff (like camping), but more inclusive.
Indian Guides, part of the YMCA, is a great alternative to the Boys Scouts. I did boy scouts as a child, and Indian Guides as a parent, and I really love the focus on parent-child in the Indian Guides much more than the pack focus of the boy scouts.
It’s also much more laid back and less intense. And, despite being run by the YMCA, the religious stuff is limited to fairly benign prayers before meals.
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