Um, yes, I have other cats. So fucking WHAT?
I said you’re a cold unfeeling mofo because you don’t seem to give a rat’s ass about anyone’s feelings.
And no, cats aren’t necessarily happier outdoors.
And maybe they want outside. So what? My cats also want to eat off my dinner plate. That ain’t gonna happen either.
Genesis records that God gave Adam dominion over the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fishes of the sea. He said nothing, however, about the cats of the house. Let `em out, God sez.
PS I have just strolled around this thread and pissed in every corner. It belongs to me now, and I`m going to sit in the middle of it and lick my bum contentedly. Anyone want to watch, feel free.
I’ve had indoor cats and outdoor cats. Our first cat got splattered by a car, but our other family cats managed to get along just fine out there.
We currently have two cats, both strictly indoor cats. One desperately wants to get out, but everytime she does, she immediately gets freaked out and races back in – it seems mostly to be an effort on her part to prove that she can escape whenever she sees fit. The other shows no interest in going out.
But allow me to return to the original point of the thread: if the law states that you can only have your pets outside when they are wearing a leash, then leaving your cat out unattended should earn you a stiff fine at the very least. And maybe a good public flogging – there aren’t enough public floggings anymore.
I begrudge you yours, when it results in the premature death of your animals. I accept that my pets are going to die too, but I get upset when it happens so I do what I can to avoid it. Why would you set yourself up for the pain?
I imagine all kinds of animals (including humans) would live shorter happier lives if the people responsible for them chose to ignore their responsibility in the way you suggest. As has been amply documented in this thead, the decision to let cats run loose results in annoyance to the people around you and premature death for your pets. If you aren’t willing to be a responsible caretaker to your pets, don’t have them.
But, since the OP isn’t about letting animals outside but letting them out without being on a leash, your “born free” routine doesn’t even make sense.
Shayna, your response just deserves a big fat :rolleyes:. Apparently it is not within your grasp that the way an animal can be best allowed to live its life is opinion and highly cultural. No - you have to be right. As I say, :rolleyes:
But you wanted a cite. In the pit. Yawn. But since I like to rise above:
The Encyclopaedia of The Cat (the most comprehensive of the several dozen cat books we have round here and also rather typical). ISBN 0-75254-157-9. By Michael Pollard, an author with many years experience and books to his name.
Page 80:
Unequivocal enough for you?
This is prelude, by the way, to eight encylocpaedia-sized pages detailing the arguments for and against indoor and outdoor cats and what should and should not be done in both circumstances. It’s fairly comprehensive.
You might be interested to know that he does includes a number of things that indoor cats must have for the physical and mental well-being. These include:
He goes on to suggest that it is vital that a housebound cat have a companion cat or dog if it is not to have the company of people all day.
He suggests as a minimum [ul]
[li]Large, strong cardboard boxes (provided not used to pack hazardous substances)[/li][li]tubes of cardboard… [some detail ommitted here by me][/li][li]Indoor ‘climbing trees’[/li][li]Catnip mice[/li][li]Scratching post[/ul][/li]
He suggests a firm shelf fitted just below the window sill at just the right height for a cat to look out.
He notes that cats show remarkable ingenuity and recommends a series of adjustments that should be made to doors and windows. He also notes that more than usual care must be taken with hazards such as cupboards and electrical flex, since an indoor cat is more likely to cause mischief out of frustration.
He notes that care must be taken to avoid poisonous plants!
I omit the routine because this isn’t GD for god’s sake and I’m tired of copying this out. But you get the idea.
Not vital, but he also strongly recommends a small outdoor run or regular walks on a leash.
So there you go. Unless you follow each and every one of those measures, I’m more entitled to level the charge of cruelty at you than vice versa. And my UK cat book certainly recommends the indoor/outdoor life anyway. Despite the dangers and problems (which he details and recommends ways of mitigating).
As for the issue of declawing: when we have that debate there are always tons of cat owners that say they keep their cat indoors and it always scratches, which is why they “need” to have it declawed. Obviously I don’t want to dredge that argument up again, but (a) it clearly does have relevance despite your best attempts to brush it under the carpet and (b) it is another rather good example of how culturally we are light years apart.
Oh - and in the UK we teach our pregnant women not to tuch cat shit. Surprisingly, this seems to work. And wouldn’t you know it - human infestations with worms are also incredibly rare. Go figure.
Incidentally, one final thought from the same book:
Cut and dried, huh? You’re in the right and I’m all wrong, huh? My God, if anyone ever deserved the “Putz” label, it’s you.
pan
OK, maybe that last bit was a touch OTT. I like you too, I suppose.
pan
kabbes, first of all, so what if this is the Pit? It’s been a long-established policy here that unsupported claims are worthless and require a cite as back-up, regardless of the forum – and that includes the Pit. This is still the Straight Dope and all rules apply in all the forums.
Second of all, I can’t find a single thing in that long reply that actually supports your contention that “making your cat stay indoors when it doesn’t want to is far crueller than letting them out.” Honestly, if you thought you were making your point, you weren’t.
Your first quote says that indoor/outdoor cats enjoy the best of both worlds. Well DUH! That doesn’t in any way, shape or form support the argument that indoor cat-keeping is cruel or that outdoor-roaming cats aren’t in more danger or more of a nuisance to your neighbors.
First of all, bullshit. Second of all, I DO do all those things – I AM a responsible pet owner! I have:[ul][li]A fun play-box tower that I built myself from cutting holes in the boxes, stacking them and taping them together so she could climb through, placing exterior holes she could stick her head out of or poke her paw out of and bat at a ball suspended from a string tied to a pencil that was secured on the top.[/li][li]Wicker baskets nailed low on the laundry room wall that she loves to scratch at[/li][li]catnip mice galore[/li][li]various other balls and toys and sticks I drag around the house while she has a blast chasing and pouncing on them[/li][li]a scratching post[/li][li]large windows in the living room, bedroom and kitchen that all have wide window ledges that she loves perching in and sniffing the fresh air when I crack them open.[/li][li]electrical wires that are firmly stapled to the floorboards where they’re accessible to her (other than behind a piece of furniture, for example)[/li][li]a house free of house plants - though when I did have a virtual terrarium in here, I made certain to check the list of poisonous-to-cats plants and not purchase any of those.[/li][li]occasional pots of indoor grass (they die rather quickly, as they’re not quite the same as keeping a standard “plant” alive), and walks on a leash/harness, allowing her to munch all the grass she wants to her heart’s content (which she promptly comes in a spits up - LOL)[/ul]Now, care to label me as cruel to my pet again?[/li]
The difference is, I can control what my cat is exposed to when she’s indoors. I cannot control the fact that one of my neighbors likes to keep ordinary indoor plants on their back porch, any of which could be highly poisonous to cats.
And since you insist on continuing the declawing issue, I’ll just say that I do not advocate its practice. My 18 year-old cat is declawed because, frankly, I didn’t know any better 18 years ago when I got her. I have since taken in a stray whose former owner made my responsibility by either allowing it to roam and thereby getting lost or abandoning it to fend for itself in the not-so-cat-friendly outdoors (and yes, I know he was previously owned because he’s been fixed), that is not declawed, and won’t be unless it becomes a safety issue (like if I have a baby and he continues his habit of using people as a tree to climb or attack).
And while human infestations of worms are rare – so what? It’s still a hazard, and one, I remind you again, I suffered myself.
And again, your last quoted paragraph doesn’t say European vets or animal experts advocate allowing cats outdoors as beneficial to them, it merely says that Europeans tend to do it more, in spite of the fact that it’s a highly debated issue.
So, in conclusion, you didn’t actually support your own argument and I still find no compelling reason to believe that cats are better off outdoors or aren’t a hazard to neighbors when allowed to roam free. Talk about a big, fat :rolleyes: of a reply. Methinks your debate skills are slipping, dear.
You want to talk about cites not supporting arguments? Your own cites noted the fact that most people (in the UK I presume) will disagree with them! And given that (a) worms are rare (a fact supported by your own cite) and (b) like all responsible owners who let their cats out, I give my cats deworming tablets every six months, I don’t have much fear that my cats have worms either.
And you’re reaching by saying that my cite doesn’t say that it is crueler to keep a cat in than let it out. “There is no doubt that a cat that is allowed to roam freely out of doors but also has a warm, secure home to come back to has the best of both worlds” clearly states that it is kinder to let it out. If you’re objecting to my particular choice of paraphrase I can only say that firstly I’ve only offered you one paragraph from one of many books (come on here - I’ve got to type it out by hand; how much time do you think I’ve got to devote to a debate that is already dead in my mind?) and secondly that resorting to such pedantry is really rather silly - the cite is pro-outdoors, that you cannot deny.
Also Shayna, I did say that unless you follow those rules you were being cruel. You’re are, so great. But do you really think that all indoor-cat owners do? So what is worse - keeping a cat indoors but not doing the things you need to do to ensure the cat’s physical and mental wellbeing or letting the cat out where it might face risks but will be happier?
Something else struck me last night, as regards attitudes to cats in gardens. The overwhelming majority opinion in this country is that it is cruel to keep cats housebound. I’m sorry, but it is. I’ve only ever come across one housebound cat and that owner had an outdoor one too, showing at the very least some ambiguity. The only people that have ever tried to suggest that keeping them housebound is anything other than less-than-ideal, let alone better are those on this messageboard.
With that in mind, it is unsurprising that people here don’t object particularly to cats in their garden. After all, cats as pets are ubiquitous. Given that letting them out is considered essential, neighbours are not even for a moment going to consider that the cat in their flowerbeds should be locked up. So they accept the cat in their flowerbed. And get used to it, since there are so many cats. As I say, it’s a cultural thing.
This attitude that “cats are a nuisance” just seems to be one I run into elsewhere in the world. So I’m afraid that particular argument fails prima facie.
As for the fact that outside cats are in more danger - I’m afraid that I just consider this one of the facts of life. I consider that the happiness that my cat clearly does get out of playing in the garden more than outweighs the danger it is in. I wouldn’t lock a child up just because the world is a dangerous place either.
I wouldn’t let my cat out if I lived in a city or even a large town, but then I wouldn’t want to own a cat if I lived in a city or large town. One of my reasons for choosing to live in the country was so that I could have cats under terms I think they need to be happy. The dangers they are in are fairly minimal and I mitigate them further by keeping them indoors after dark. Most things in life are an exercise in identifying risk and reward and when it comes to this risk/reward trade-off I have every confidence in my decision. I’m sorry if you can’t accept that.
And one final though - obfus seems to be determined to win as few friends as possible but stripped of the antagonism his point is quite simple. Cats don’t live for very long and the quality of their life cannot be measured by human terms. They don’t worry about the future and they don’t consider their place in the cosmos. They totally live for the moment - something I rather like about them. With this considered, it seems best to me to allow them to live that moment as fully as they can. My cats always enjoy life when they are in the house. But until you see them careering down the garden and ducking behind tall grass to ambush eachother on a spring morning, well, you haven’t truly seen them happy. If their lives are shortened as a result it is sad of course but not as sad as preventing this fulfilment of their nature.
pan
You’re are?
Gotcha ya!