# Keep your fingers out of other people's pies **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946 "2010-01-29T20:40:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/21 "2010-01-30T00:49:20Z")
**Kobal2** , consider that these people are NOT license medical professionals…yet. Maybe I don’t trust a student to work on my body. Perhaps that sounds irrational, but a person is totally entitled to those feelings. Again, if something goes wrong, and I have someone inexperienced, who isn’t YET a doctor, but only a student examing MY body without MY permission, I’m going to be fucking pissed off. Some people are very shy. That is their right. Besides, what about minors? Hmmm? Excuse me, but it’s not about someone looking at my, what was it, “pwecious hoo-hah”? :rolleyes: How about you stick your self-righteousness straight up your pwecious asshole? ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/22 "2010-01-30T01:07:50Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > What if I just want to find out if a duck’s quack echos? This post was astoshingly ignored, and about the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time. C’mon… picture it… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/23 "2010-01-30T02:29:02Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If you don’t understand the difference between looking at lab results and x-rays, on the one hand, and a physical examination of a woman’s reproductive organs, on the other, then you’re too stupid for words. Word the difference. Please. Consider it an exercise. Because I assure you that to a medical practitioner, an organ’s an organ’s an organ, whether it’s attached to a male or female, whether it’s a reproductive or digestive one, or whether you watch it live or through an MRI machine. It’s all meat. [QUOTE=Guinastasia] **Kobal2** , consider that these people are NOT license medical professionals…yet. Maybe I don’t trust a student to work on my body. [/QUOTE] Again, if you’re going to a teaching hospital, you’re going to be worked over by students. That’s a fact you have to accept before you walk in. Whether it’s them doing your X-Ray, or watching your surgery, or, yes, practising exams on you they may or may not be entirely qualified for. They will be closely supervised, but still. Can’t avoid it. You don’t want to, you don’t trust those diploma-less nincompoops, go to a regular hospital. It doesn’t mean they’re bad, either. Anecdote : I had two wisdom teeth plus a ridiculously infected tooth pulled out by a student dentist, and a pretty green one at that, if I go by the way her attending hovered around her, gave her praise for the slightest thing, and how she fumbled with the first one. Best dentist visit of my life. The girl was so afraid to hurt me, I didn’t feel a thing. My regular dentist could care less. > [@](#): > > Perhaps that sounds irrational, but a person is totally entitled to those feelings. Again, if something goes wrong, and I have someone inexperienced, who isn’t YET a doctor, but only a student examing MY body without MY permission, I’m going to be fucking pissed off. Some people are very shy. That is their right. If something goes wrong ?! It’s a _pelvic exam_. Last time I checked, they didn’t do it with chainsaws. The absolute worst that could happen is minor tearing which, again, they’re probably \*more \*likely to watch out for. > [@](#): > > Besides, what about minors? Hmmm? When come back, bring cite. I must commend you, however, for having the guts to play the “Will you think of the children ?” card. Ballsy move, in this day, age and forum. [QUOTE=Beadalin] Moreover, the article states that a huge percentage WOULD consent if asked [/QUOTE] Meh. Everybody says they give blood, or will real soon, honest. The blood banks are still chronically in demand. Polls and actual decisions aren’t the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/24 "2010-01-30T02:42:08Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > What about having a form that someone must sign before they get any treatment at the teaching hospital that says something to the effect of “certain minor diagnostic procedures may be given to you by medical students under the supervision of a physician for the purposes of educating our medical students.” Over 30 years ago, I was a patient at a teaching hospital, and the admission forms I signed had something just like this in it. The person in the admitting office pointed it out, and said that it meant that some mornings I might have a whole crowd of med students around, each one examining me in turn, and then explaining their observations to the doctor. That didn’t stop me from signing in, and in fact, I learned more about my condition from hearing those discussions than my doctor ever told me. And one day when I hadn’t slept well the night before, I complained that I was too tired out to go through all those exams, so the doctor limited them (and then asked the students to explain what sedative (if any) they would prescribe for me, and why). If they ever examined me when I was asleep, I never noticed it, and wouldn’t have objected, either. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/25 "2010-01-30T02:50:44Z")
Oh, if it’s only _minor_ tearing, it’s okay. And again, if you go to a teaching hospital, you STILL give consent in order to be looked at by med students. Got that? And not everyone can just “go to another hospital.” Hell, I was just rejected by TWO specialists because I don’t have insurance and they don’t take people who are self-pay. Maybe that’s the only hospital available to someone. Listen, moron, x-rays and such are anonymous. They’re not identified by name. Do you seriously, SERIOUSLY think looking at X-Rays and MRIs are the same thing as giving a pelvic exam to an unconscious patient? WITHOUT SAID PATIENT’S CONSENT!!! Tell me, just how hard did your mother drop you on your head when you were an infant, and from what height? As for “it’s only meat”, not everyone feels that way. Are their reasons valid? That’s not up to YOU to decide, you ignorant shit. (For example, a survivor of sexual assault may have issues about this) And no, a body is NOT a piece of meat – I am NOT a cadaver or a medical mannequin for you to practice on at will. May I ask you, just out of curiousity – are you a woman? Again, ASK MY FUCKING PERMISSION. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/26 "2010-01-30T03:31:16Z")
Ask my permission, and I’ll gladly give it. Don’t ask my permission? Keep your fingers out of my pie. ---
**Author:** ![statsman1982](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@statsman1982](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/statsman1982)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/27 "2010-01-30T03:44:16Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > No compromise. I work in the medical field, in a “teaching hospital”, and doing unnecessary exams/procedures without full informed consent is not right. > > Nearly 70% of the patients polled said they would give consent to have a pelvic exam performed on them if it was requested of them. So get the consent. Signing a general “we can do what we want” form would probably be shot down by any decent hospital’s legal department. Also, patients cannot sign away their rights, so the form does not protect the hospital from being sued if someone alleges that “they weren’t specific enough”/“I didn’t mean **that**!!!”/“I ended up with a bleeding cervix\* and thought I had cancer”/“one of you jerks dislodged my Nuvaring, I didnt notice, had sex later, and got pregnant”/etc. > > - Happens after some pap smears, but the doctors inform you about that when you have them done the normal way. Yeah, well that’s why I said _“something to the effect of”_ in my post. I know it would have to be shored up before it would pass legal muster. IANA lawyer, and I’m not adept at coming up with ironclad contract clauses at the spur of the moment. 🙂 But what I had it mind was something that I signed at my PCP’s practice the other day. I was given a form that was pretty darn general, saying that a student is working with the doctor as part of her training, would I be willing to let her sit in on the doctor’s consultation and participate in any exam. There weren’t any specific procedures that were excluded on that form. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/28 "2010-01-30T03:46:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And again, if you go to a teaching hospital, you STILL give consent in order to be looked at by med students. Got that? And not everyone can just “go to another hospital.” Hell, I was just rejected by TWO specialists because I don’t have insurance and they don’t take people who are self-pay. Maybe that’s the only hospital available to someone. OK, I can accept that. Again, y’all have weird health care. > [@](#): > > Listen, moron, x-rays and such are anonymous. They’re not identified by name. So… If the students examine your crotch but aren’t told your name and/or don’t see your face it’s OK ? What fucking difference does it make ? > [@](#): > > Do you seriously, SERIOUSLY think looking at X-Rays and MRIs are the same thing as giving a pelvic exam to an unconscious patient? WITHOUT SAID PATIENT’S CONSENT!!! Tell me, just how hard did your mother drop you on your head when you were an infant, and from what height? From an objective perspective, yes, it’s the same thing. Did you give your consent to show your bones ? Or the inside of your small intestine, in the case of a colonoscopy ? Or is it different when the ones invading your biological privacy aren’t in the same room as you ? When you don’t know about it, maybe ? You and \*\*mhendo \*\*can scream I’m an idiot all you want, you still haven’t managed to articulate why you considered this was this and that was that. > [@](#): > > May I ask you, just out of curiousity – are you a woman? Again, what the fuck difference does it make ? Would it be more okay to you if the article was about men being given prostate exams ? Which, BTW, I’m pretty confident they perform as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/29 "2010-01-30T04:14:08Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > But what I had it mind was something that I signed at my PCP’s practice the other day. I was given a form that was pretty darn general, saying that a student is working with the doctor as part of her training, would I be willing to let her sit in on the doctor’s consultation and participate in any exam. There weren’t any specific procedures that were excluded on that form. Yeah, but you’re awake and all. If you choose to revoke permission for the student to participate, you can do so at any time. I also have my own health care done where I work. I see med students and residents all the time. I also am the first to volunteer myself for testing/equipment calibration procedures/let the students or new techs learn something, in my own department, and often these procedures are highly uncomfortable. When necessary, my workplace has recruitment of fake patients for students to do examinations on, as part of their grading in various classes. These “patients” are coached, given a script of complaints to recite, and are paid for their time. On the big day, the students examine the patients and write up their “findings.” I see no reason why schools that fail at recruiting consenting subjects couldn’t follow that practice. ---
**Author:** ![kathmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kathmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathmandu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/30 "2010-01-30T04:24:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > From an objective perspective, yes, it’s the same thing. Did you give your consent to show your bones ? Or the inside of your small intestine, in the case of a colonoscopy ? Or is it different when the ones invading your biological privacy aren’t in the same room as you ? When you don’t know about it, maybe ? > You and \*\*mhendo \*\*can scream I’m an idiot all you want, you still haven’t managed to articulate why you considered this was this and that was that. If you don’t intuitively understand that looking at an x-ray is different from conducting a pelvic exam, I don’t think anyone’s going to be able to explain it to you. One involves looking at a picture of your bones. The other involves spreading your legs, putting them in stirrups, parting your labia, inserting a metal or plastic speculum into your vagina, and taking a swab. It also involves inserting fingers into the vagina and feeling around internal organs. To argue that from an objective perspective they’re the same is asinine. It’s like saying looking at a photograph of my face is the same as sticking your tongue down my throat. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/31 "2010-01-30T04:49:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Again, what the fuck difference does it make ? Would it be more okay to you if the article was about men being given prostate exams ? Which, BTW, I’m pretty confident they perform as well. No it would not be okay if they did that. My point is, I don’t think a man should be telling a woman how she should feel about her vagina, and dismissing her feelings. It’s NOT about the examination itself. It’s about being examined WITHOUT MY CONSENT. (And again, “minor tearing” isn’t a big deal? Seriously?) Again, I MIGHT say yes if asked. Or I might not. However, it appears this practice of doing so without consent is not allowed in the States, thank god. (Sorry, Canadians. I hope everyone raises holy hell about it and gets things changed.) BTW, is this only done on specifically OBGYN surgery? Or could someone having an apendectomy have this happen? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/32 "2010-01-30T05:29:34Z")
I may be confused, but quite apart form the ethical issues, isn’t this outright _illegal_? ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/33 "2010-01-30T05:44:07Z")
… I’m supposed to “step in here”, but I cannot find the correct version of weebl and bob! Could someone else take up the cause? 😉 Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/34 "2010-01-30T05:45:35Z")
Honestly, anyone who can’t see the difference between a medical student looking at an x-ray and a medical student giving a woman a pelvic exam isn’t worth arguing with. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/35 "2010-01-30T05:47:56Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I may be confused, but quite apart form the ethical issues, isn’t this outright _illegal_? Not in Canada, apparently. > [@Quasimodem](#): > > … I’m supposed to “step in here”, but I cannot find the correct version of weebl and bob! > > Could someone else take up the cause? 😉 > > Thanks > > Q [Here ya go](http://www.weebls-stuff.com/wab/pie/), **Quasi**. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/36 "2010-01-30T06:19:14Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not in Canada, apparently. > > [Here ya go](http://www.weebls-stuff.com/wab/pie/), **Quasi**. 😃 YES!!! Thanks, **Guin!** 🙂 All the ones I found didn’t have “Wanker” at the end, and no way was I gonna use ersatz **PIE!!!** _Whew_ I feel better now and can go to bed with a clear consience, thanks to **Guin**!😉 Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/37 "2010-01-30T06:25:15Z")
BTW, I didn’t really pay attention to this: > [@](#): > > And if they waited for your consent, they would face the same problem as corpse dissection : only a really, really small percentage of the public give it. **Kobal2** , I think that about says it all, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/38 "2010-01-30T06:53:20Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Winner, Best Thread Title. > > Yeah, this squicks me out. Nobody should ever administer a medical procedure without express consent of the participant. Given the history of Dating Humans, what is “express consent?” This is easily stretched to ridiculous degrees. “I would like to kiss you. May I?” “Yes, you may.” “And may I touch your left breast?” “Yes, you may.” “As we continue I might be drawn to touching your pudenda?” “Please continue to ask permission at each step and wait for consent. A moan is not express consent.” I do not envy kids these days. And my wife and I do not expect our kids to follow anything like it. 1. We taught them right to begin with. 2. It’s few steps for us to connect REAL NIGHTCLUBS full of people we want four kids of ours, plus several “I’llTellYourDad” claims she wants to go home. FTR, Lisa, pass out there. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/39 "2010-01-30T07:02:49Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > “As we continue I might be drawn to touching your pudenda?” Any use of the term “pudenda” outside of hopelessly dated novels should be rewarded with a swift kick to the balls. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Maiira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Maiira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maiira)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946/40 "2010-01-30T08:39:06Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Ask my permission, and I’ll gladly give it. > > Don’t ask my permission? Keep your fingers out of my pie. This. I actually like the idea of an unconscious pelvic exam, but for fuck’s sake, tell me you’re doing it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-fingers-out-of-other-peoples-pies/526946.md?page=3)