# Keep your propaganda out of the museum! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2003, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291 "2003-03-14T08:40:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/21 "2003-03-14T18:13:06Z")
**Rilchiam** I agree with what you say. Of course if an artist wants to make a statement about war or politics that is fine with me. If an artist wants people to participate and add to (or subtract from) a particular work but people should not alter the art. BUT Then you say this. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\*, except to say that I don’t believe it matters _what **I** _ think. I’m just following the news while staying neutral. What’s going to happen is going to happen. Or not happen. > > \*\* I’m pretty sure that you are of voting age and that you live in a democracy. What you think does indeed count. (if you vote gets counted properly) ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/22 "2003-03-14T18:45:02Z")
But Monet was controversial. People thought his blotches of color didn’t show any craftsmanship, and people didn’t approve of Degas because he wouldn’t do portrature. People thought a lot of this was realy ugly stuff at the time. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/23 "2003-03-14T19:04:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furlibusea \* > \*\*But Monet was controversial. People thought his blotches of color didn’t show any craftsmanship, and people didn’t approve of Degas because he wouldn’t do portrature. People thought a lot of this was realy ugly stuff at the time. \*\* Umm, you place far too much emphasis on controversy as a measure of a work of art’s worth. Moreover, you seem to inject the adjective “controversial” into each artist’s careeer even wheere there is no evidence for such a claim, as in Da Vinci. The Impressionist painters were met with some initial scorn by the popular press (the word “Impressionism” was coined by the reporter Louis Leroy in his review of Monet’s seascape _Impressions: soleil levant_ [rising sun], but their new style of capturing light on canvas gained favor among the public quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/24 "2003-03-14T23:09:17Z")
I saw this particular installation in 1998 and again in 2000, and I don’t recall ever seeing anything to do with Iraq in it. My vote goes for “Someone stuck it there”. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/25 "2003-03-14T23:13:23Z")
The badge just rubbed me the wrong way at the wrong time. I am not speaking for anyone else here, but I, personally, am getting bombarded with talk about Iraq. It’s on every channel. It’s on every talk radio show. My mom sends me daily e-mails telling me what she thinks of Dubya. It’s currently Friend’s number-one conversational topic, supplanting wrestling and music. It’s the subject of dozens of threads here on SDMB. No, I don’t read what I don’t want to read, but a thread can start off about one thing, and before you know it, it turns into a thread about Iraq. Even the Eliz. Smart threads have had people saying things like “Well, I’m glad this story has a happy ending, 'cause god knows the Iraq story sure won’t.” It’s all I bloody hear. Well, that and **American Idol** 😉 I just needed a respite from all that. **Zebra** , I am of voting age. But I’ve cast my votes. I’ve sent my e-mails to elected officials, and I’ve called into Larry Elder and Dennis Praeger, before the discussions became redundant. Now we’re past the point where any form of protest can do anything. Absolutely no offense to people here who did participate in protests. You did what you could when you could. But now the only thing anyone can do is watch as the train picks up speed. I didn’t realize how frustrated I was until I did see this thing. I am **not** an ostrich. I do **not** like Thomas Kinkade. But thank you, **susan** and **gobear** , for pointing out that it’s acceptable to appreciate some art simply for its aesthetics. **Eve** : I’ll admit that some modern art is a cop out. In fact, part of my enjoyment of it is seeing Mr. Rilch’s reaction to it! Because that’s what some modern artists **are** trying to do: simply piss people off for the sake of it. Of course, there was the inevitable canvas-painted-all-one-color-except-it-was-a-funny-shape-and-had-some-shading-at-the-bottom. But Mr. Rilch actually liked the garden-hoses-welded-together-to-look-like-a-wave! And the “100 Boots” photos. Grudgingly, he admitted that using non-traditional media can sometimes be creative. And, if you ask me, our attempts to define the line between modern art and what results when you turn a child loose with a bunch of random objects was a challenging and worthwhile discussion. **Watcher** : I also saw a white cube with a tiny plaque on it that said “Please do not touch”. Eyes narrowed, I tiptoed forward to look at the artists name and title…and saw a notice that whatever had been there, had been taken away for refurbishing. “Well, okay,” I said. “Not even I would have been able to defend a plain white cube.” **furlibusea** : I’m not saying that art is always and only supposed to make you “comfortable”. And I’m aware of controversy! Listen, there was another installation that showed a 1938 Ford, with beer bottles scattered on the fake grass around it. Inside (the door was open) were more beer bottles, and a sculpture of a woman sprawled out on the back seat. A chicken-wire (except for shoes on the “feet”) figure of a man was on top of her, groping her lewdly. The placard explained that this was created in 1966. City officials objected to it on grounds of obscenity. The LACMA trustees refused to remove it. The city officials threatened to close down the entire museum if it wasn’t removed, so the trustees compromised. The door would remain closed, to be opened by a guard if everyone in the room was over 18. So there’s your controversy. And if I’d been around in 1966, I would have been on the side of the trustees and the artist. I’m glad they told us of that bit of history: it shows how far we’ve come since then\*. If, today, city officials objected to a pro/anti-war statement that was an **intentional** element of something in LACMA, I would again side with the trustees. But I’m not gonna defend a vandal. He can create his own art if he wants to make a statement. I’m also not gonna debate the relative worth of _Guernica_ vs. _Water Lilies_, because my rant wasn’t about art: it was about some smartass who added their own propaganda to something that didn’t have a political message. **Weirddave** , you nailed it. \*I also wonder how many of those city officials found reasons to examine the installation, or photos of it, again and again and again, to make **sure** that it was unacceptable…😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/26 "2003-03-14T23:16:56Z")
So what did you think of the whole shebang, **Smapti**? Just curious! ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/27 "2003-03-14T23:46:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\* I’m not saying that art is always and only supposed to make you “comfortable”. \*\* I agree with you there. I spent 20 years working professionaly in theatre and sometimes get a little too reactionary about the dumbing down of art just to get an audience. I don’t realy have a problem with doing the light stuff its just sometimes that anything else gets pushed out so that there will be sales. There realy is room just asthetics I just sometimes get fed up when thats all there is, and sometimes even that gets pushed out. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Rilchiam_\*\* But I’m not gonna defend a vandal. He can create his own art if he wants to make a statement.\*\* I agree 100% ---
**Author:** ![Tarantara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a4c791/32.png) [@Tarantara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarantara)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/28 "2003-03-15T00:17:52Z")
I was in the San Bernardino County Museum with my mother and Grandmother. There are exhibits of local flora and fauna, geology, antiques, history, etc. In one corner was an African exhibit. No other place other than San Bernardino County had an exhibit anywhere else in the museum. What the hell that was doing in a Museum dedicated to local history, I have no idea. I can only conjecture that it was done for PC purposes, but it was absurd and offensive to all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/29 "2003-03-15T02:19:55Z")
Oh brother. :rolleyes: I’ll bet anything that they had to do that in order to keep getting grant money. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/30 "2003-03-15T02:21:33Z")
Oh, and **furlibusea** : Okay then! ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/31 "2003-03-15T05:37:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > And what about Kathe Kollwitz’s [Never Again War](http://www.bethel.edu/~letnie/KollwitzNeverAgain.html)? Wow. I really liked this one but I couldn’t fully wrap my mind around why the arms are up and what emotion is being expressed on the face. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/32 "2003-03-15T17:37:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\* Someone had rigged up a room to look exactly the way a garage would if someone had been spent twenty years or more accruing all the junk that piles up in a garage over time. Shelves and drawers and workbenches, all scattered with odds and ends. \*\* I’m sure people do leave things behind, intentionally, in _Central Meridian_. I know and love that exhibit. I’m raising my morning coffee cup to The Temple Of Cosmic United Atoms Revealed right now. \*other dopers wander about scratching their heads, saying to themselves, “L.A…that explains it”. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/33 "2003-03-15T18:29:26Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by gobear \* \*\* > [@](#): > > If you feel serenity and wonderment while looking at _Guernica_, then you don’t understand the painting. \*\* So her reaction was _wrong?_, there’s a _wrong_ reaction to art? \ - “no no no monsuier, you’re supposed to be angry when you see this”\* \ **Eve** To _me_ a 1967 Shelby GT-500 E Mustang is art, to others its just an old car … ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/34 "2003-03-15T19:59:23Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > * * * > > > > ## Originally posted by gobear If you feel serenity and wonderment while looking at Guernica, then you don’t understand the painting. > > So her reaction was wrong?, there’s a wrong reaction to art? The OP wasn’t looking at _Guernica_ sinse she was in LA and not Madrid. And I’m not saying that there are necessarily wrong reactions to art, but. . . [Guernica](http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/a_nav/guernica_nav/main_guerfrm.html) is a cry of grief and horror in rection to the bombardment of a Basque village during the Sapnish Civil War. Over the course of three days, 1600 noncombatants were killed or wounded. “Serenity and wonderment”, IMO, would be an inappropriate reaction to this painting, just as much as someone getting “a feeling of peace” form watching 9/11 footage. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/35 "2003-03-15T20:32:59Z")
hmph, I must be a simpleton when I look at that painting all I’m thinking is WTF? If I hadn’t read: "It is modern art’s most powerful antiwar statement… " I would think “man this guy is a nut job” I’m guessing that a) that people are told before hand what this piece represents,and who painted it so they could say “oohh yes that is a powerful peice” b) there are those who do get a feeling of peace and serenity from watching 9-11 footage… Whats my point? helephino Im an artist… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/36 "2003-03-16T03:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > I must be a simpleton when I look at that painting all I’m thinking is WTF? If I hadn’t read: "It is modern art’s most powerful antiwar statement… " I would think “man this guy is a nut job” > > I’m guessing that > a) that people are told before hand what this piece represents,and who painted it so they could say "oohh yes that is a powerful peice Well, the woman screaming in agony and the horse blown apart should clue in the viewers that they aren’t looking at _Le Petit Dejeuner Sur L’herbe_. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/37 "2003-03-16T04:22:55Z")
Did you see it in Madrid, Tony? All I can say is that the impression that that enormous canvas makes is devastating. I burst into tears and had to leave the gallery. A small reproduction just can’t communicate it. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/38 "2003-03-16T05:47:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Did you see it in Madrid, Tony? All I can say is that the impression that that enormous canvas makes is devastating. I burst into tears and had to leave the gallery. A small reproduction just can’t communicate it. \*\* Good point, the link gobear supplied is the only time I’ve seen it … ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/39 "2003-03-17T23:40:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*“Someone had rigged up a room to look exactly the way a garage would if someone had been spent twenty years or more accruing all the junk that piles up in a garage over time.” > > —Doesn’t sound so much like “art” as, oh, I don’t know . . . _A pile of crap?_ I think I’d be more horrified if someone stuck a NO WAR WITH IRAQ sticker on a Holbein or a Goya. This sounds like one more little piece of annoying crap atop the huge _pile_ of annoying crap. \*\* To be fair, it’s not just a “pile of crap”, but a “pile of crap that really makes you wonder about the person it belonged to”. You encounter things that are just – slightly off, but not horrifying or obviously disturbing. For example, there are no Nazi insignia, nor a KKK uniform hanging on the wall, but just oddities. My reference above, to the “Temple Of Cosmic United Atoms Revealed” refers to a sign with those words nailed to the wall, featuring a little atom graphic and, if memory serves, a lab flask to symbolize “science”. You just have to experience it before you dismiss it. Really, I expected that a published author living and working in the cultural capital of the Western World would not be so quick to dismiss it out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291/40 "2003-03-17T23:41:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*“Someone had rigged up a room to look exactly the way a garage would if someone had been spent twenty years or more accruing all the junk that piles up in a garage over time.” > > —Doesn’t sound so much like “art” as, oh, I don’t know . . . _A pile of crap?_ I think I’d be more horrified if someone stuck a NO WAR WITH IRAQ sticker on a Holbein or a Goya. This sounds like one more little piece of annoying crap atop the huge _pile_ of annoying crap. \*\* To be fair, it’s not just a “pile of crap”, but a “pile of crap that really makes you wonder about the person it belonged to”. You encounter things that are just – slightly off, but not horrifying or obviously disturbing. For example, there are no Nazi insignia, nor a KKK uniform hanging on the wall, but just oddities. My reference above, to the “Temple Of Cosmic United Atoms Revealed” refers to a sign with those words nailed to the wall, featuring a little atom graphic and, if memory serves, a lab flask to symbolize “science”. You just have to experience it before you dismiss it. Really, I expected that a published author living and working in the cultural capital of the Western World\* would not be so quick to dismiss it out of hand. \*unless I’ve got you confused with someone else, that is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keep-your-propaganda-out-of-the-museum/161291.md?page=3)