# Keeping US borders safe **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335 "2005-06-07T19:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/81 "2005-06-08T14:20:53Z")
Gah. The very first thing I see when I open my eyes this morning is his mug on CNN. I thought I was having a nightmare. **ElvisL1ves** , no, the border patrol did not have enough evidence to detain him. Your outrage is misplaced. A smart person would realize his/her error, and concede the fight. Be smart. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/82 "2005-06-08T14:24:20Z")
Perhaps asking the Canadian guard across the street “Hey, you hosers got anything on this whackjob _while he’s still on your side_?” might have provided an answer to that. Or, if that would have taken a while, a detainment on suspicion (yes, they’re time-limited, but not to 2 hours, and reasonable cause certainly existed) might have been useful. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/83 "2005-06-08T14:29:57Z")
So your outrage comes not from the fact that he wasn’t detained (longer than he was), but from the fact that there is no way for the Canadian and U.S. governments to share warrant information to find out if people are escaping the law by crossing the border? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/84 "2005-06-08T14:32:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Perhaps asking the Canadian guard across the street “Hey, you hosers got anything on this whackjob _while he’s still on your side_?” might have provided an answer to that. Or, if that would have taken a while, a detainment on suspicion (yes, they’re time-limited, but not to 2 hours, and reasonable cause certainly existed) might have been useful. Could you at least quote something, anything actually that would support that? Something like a local by-law, sate law, federal criminal law, immigration law with respect to American citizens. You must have something other than a hand waving argument. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/85 "2005-06-08T14:46:32Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > So your outrage comes not from the fact that he wasn’t detained (longer than he was), but from the fact that there is no way for the Canadian and U.S. governments to share warrant information to find out if people are escaping the law by crossing the border? He hadn’t crossed the border yet. He was still in Canada’s jurisdiction. Canadian law enforcement never had the opportunity to act on him, though, never knowing he was even there. What official sharing of warrant information was needed? Are you through being snide yet, or do you actually have something to contribute? **Grey** , [The Maine AG’s discussion of reasonable suspicion.](http://www.maine.gov/ag/faq.php?pods=131) [Quickie view of US federal law](http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/AidAbetUnlawfulSec8USC1324.html). Certainly Canada has something similar? The guy was, after all, in Canada after committing a murder in Canada and failing to appear in court in Canada, right up until the moment US guards let him through. The legal beagles are welcome to take more time and find better links. Enjoy yourself. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/86 "2005-06-08T14:51:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Perhaps asking the Canadian guard across the street “Hey, you hosers got anything on this whackjob _while he’s still on your side_?” might have provided an answer to that. Or, if that would have taken a while, a detainment on suspicion (yes, they’re time-limited, but not to 2 hours, and reasonable cause certainly existed) might have been useful. Re-read the article like it’s a clue-by-four upside the head. **At the time of the crossing** there were no outstanding warrants. Bodies were found a day later. He was due in court that day, so a warrant for that would be hours away at best, more likely a couple of days. A red/rust stained chainsaw is not probably cause for anything. Stop being a nimrod and admit you overreacted. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/87 "2005-06-08T15:00:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you through being snide yet, or do you actually have something to contribute? Fine then. Go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/88 "2005-06-08T15:21:54Z")
> [@ScoobyTX](#): > > Who knew that Minto (a village of 2,700 people) had a Country Music Hall of Fame? 'Tis only a \*\*Wall \*\*of Fame, according to the AP article linked to in the OP. Still, what a weird bit of info to put in the article, eh? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/89 "2005-06-08T15:38:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And you \*do \* know what evidence exists for Guantanamo “detainees”? Please enlighten us as to what it is and how you know. > > Your second statement is false, as well. But my assertion that you’re a clown is not. Jesus you are obtuse. NO, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT EVIDENCE EXISTS WHICH IS WHY I DON"T PASS JUDGEMENT ON IT’S QUALITY! And the issue isn’t whether evidence exists are not. It has to do with you expecting a strict interpretation of the law in a case where it meets your political ends and another case where you expect an officer to say “Yea well the law is important, but come on!” You’re a hypocrite like most wingnuts. Best save what little mental energy your two-volt brain can produce for a battle that is only slightly less stupid. I know you can come up with one. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/90 "2005-06-08T15:39:31Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Gah. The very first thing I see when I open my eyes this morning is his mug on CNN. I thought I was having a nightmare. > > **ElvisL1ves** , no, the border patrol did not have enough evidence to detain him. Your outrage is misplaced. A smart person would realize his/her error, and concede the fight. Be smart. Good Christ man, this is ElvisL1ves you’re talking to. You’ve got a better chance of convincing a marmoset to breath water. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/91 "2005-06-08T15:51:09Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Good Christ man, this is ElvisL1ves you’re talking to. You’ve got a better chance of convincing a marmoset to breath water. Is that a challenge, **Weirddave**? Will you supply the marmosets? Is there a time frame (evolution can do wonderful things). Let’s lay out the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/92 "2005-06-08T16:07:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Grey** , [The Maine AG’s discussion of reasonable suspicion.](http://www.maine.gov/ag/faq.php?pods=131) > [Quickie view of US federal law](http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/AidAbetUnlawfulSec8USC1324.html). Certainly Canada has something similar? The guy was, after all, in Canada after committing a murder in Canada and failing to appear in court in Canada, right up until the moment US guards let him through. The legal beagles are welcome to take more time and find better links. Enjoy yourself. From your first reference > [@From United States v. Arvizu](#): > > U.S. Supreme Court held, though, that considering the totality of the circumstances and giving due weight to the factual inferences drawn by the officer and the District Court Judge, the officer had reasonable suspicion to believe that Arvizu was engaged in illegal activity. Because the balance between the public interest and the individual’s right to personal security tilts in favor of a standard less than probable cause in brief investigatory stops of persons or vehicles, the Fourth Amendment is satisfied if the officer’s action is supported by reasonable suspicion to believe that criminal activity may be afoot. > \ > Here, it was reasonable for the officer to infer from his observations, his vehicle registration check, and his border patrol experience that Arvizu had set out on a route used by drug smugglers and that he intended to pass through the area during a border patrol shift change. As well, the officer’s assessment of the reactions of Arvizu and his passengers was entitled to some weight. Although each of the factors alone is susceptible to innocent explanation, and some factors are more probative than others, taken together, they sufficed to form a particularized and objective basis for stopping the vehicle. In our case the border guards have a chain saw, knife and some brass knuckles. It’s the sole crossing for the area, he’s a citizen and he has no outstanding warrants at the time they detain him. In short they have no grounds to keep him. Yet they hold him for 2 hors. Are you seriously suggesting they keep him until something comes through? How long would you wait? A day? Two maybe, or perhaps a week? The guy crosses the border at Calais on the 25th of April The guy is due in Canadian court on the 25th of April The bodies were found on the 26th of April at 3 PM As to your second reference, I’m not sure how INS deals with illegal aliens has much bearing on this case. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/93 "2005-06-08T16:25:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you through being snide yet, or do you actually have something to contribute? I love irony. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/94 "2005-06-08T16:26:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I love irony. Me too. It makes my sandwiches more crunchy. what? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/95 "2005-06-08T16:37:24Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > In our case the border guards have a chain saw, knife and some brass knuckles. You forgot two “homemade” swords and a can of pepper spray. As an aggregate, (considering that all of these items were in the same bag and that the man carried nothing else,) this is pretty suspicious. When he was arrested two days later, he was wearing bloodstained clothing – and it seems likely that this was in his possession (or perhaps on his person) when he crossed the border. Hell, Peter Lorre would probably concede that Mr. Despres was a little over the top in his telegraphing of “I am a homicidal maniac!” If the answers he gave the border guards were _anything_ like the answers he gave the judge, they may have had cause to turn him over to the mental health authorities – “What’s your destination?” “I work for NASA. I’m going to Kansas to brief some Marines.” Okay, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/96 "2005-06-08T16:47:03Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > You forgot two “homemade” swords and a can of pepper spray. And I forgot the hatchet. And we both missed the [_bullet proof vest_](http://www.canada.com/fortstjohn/story.html?id=77b1345d-d172-48b4-ac98-b1a77c3c1fb5). :smack: > [@](#): > > His trousers were spattered with blood. Inside his backpack he had a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife and brass knuckles. He was also packing pepper spray and wearing a bullet-proof vest. According to the article, he _did_ lie to the border guards – he said he was in the (U.S.) military. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/97 "2005-06-08T17:15:04Z")
It’s like something out of First Blood. Well I’ve check the Main Criminal code “Dangerous weapons” (i.e. 17-2 2) Any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or serious bodily injury; ) apparently these can be confiscated by law enforcement, but I’m not sure how that applies to Federal Border Guards. Let’s say they need to operate the same way. So they take his sword, knuckles and machete but leave him his knife, chain saw and hatchet since they have no reason to deprive him of viable tools. As for his claim of being in the military, well does the INS check? Can they? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/98 "2005-06-08T18:02:42Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > As for his claim of being in the military, well does the INS check? Can they? It seems likely that they would have access to a database that could confirm it – but even if they don’t, it’s well within their ability to ask to see some corroborating ID. > [@](#): > > So they take his sword, knuckles and machete but leave him his knife, chain saw and hatchet since they have no reason to deprive him of viable tools. No, they took all of his sharp things away, including his chainsaw. They had reason to. He fairly had “I am a violent offender” tattooed on his face. It was prudent to disarm him. They had reason to keep him in custody longer, too – in order to find out what the hell was up with him. When you’ve got a guy sitting there, wearing a flak jacket, carrying a bloody chainsaw and a bag of weapons, it’s pretty clear that he isn’t out for a casual stroll. He had some hard questions coming to him, and he doesn’t seem like the sort of person who is extraordinarily persuasive. I know it’s not quite the same, since I don’t have duel citizenship, but I’ve been detained at the border for much longer than two hours over much less than being a swastika-sporting freak carrying around an arsenal-in-a-sack, spattered with blood. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/99 "2005-06-08T19:04:02Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > NO, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT EVIDENCE EXISTS WHICH IS WHY I DON"T PASS JUDGEMENT ON IT’S QUALITY! If you don’t even know if any exists, isn’t that a more significant problem than its theoretical quality? > [@](#): > > And the issue isn’t whether evidence exists are not. Welcome to George Bush’s America, everyone. **Grey** , I was trying to point you to _Canadian_ law and procedures, which would seem to apply to someone who hadn’t entered the US yet, wouldn’t it? > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > When you’ve got a guy sitting there, wearing a flak jacket, carrying a bloody chainsaw and a bag of weapons, it’s pretty clear that he isn’t out for a casual stroll. Well, we do still have a couple of posters claiming, rather vociferously at that, that he might well have just been hunting. Sure, you need a bullet-proof vest for that - that seems like a reasonable precaution to me. So do the chainsaw, sword, and brass knuckles; those moose can be vicious. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335/100 "2005-06-08T19:21:03Z")
That’s why I keep a vial of mutated anthrax. For duck hunting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/keeping-us-borders-safe/307335.md?page=6)