# Kelly wants us to judge him by "what Trump didn't do" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045 "2019-01-01T17:40:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/21 "2019-01-02T14:34:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Especially when contrasted with his fellow Marine, James Mattis. I just finished the Theranos book, Bad Blood, and I had no idea [Mattis was involved](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&q=mattis+theranos) and how absolutely stupid and reckless he was. Particularly because his recklessness and greed would have been at the expense of American troops. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/22 "2019-01-02T15:18:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes it’s honorable to throw a hissy fit when you’re being ignored. I must laugh at all of these military clowns going down in flames these past few years. > > At no other time in US history has a group of obvious military bunglers been bestowed such undeserved reverence as the time before Trump. Let these idiots collect their checks and go away. Revered before Trump? He thought these were the “best people”. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/23 "2019-01-02T15:28:36Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That’s the tag-line from Kelly’s interview with the [Los Angeles Times](https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-john-kelly-exit-interview-20181230-story.html): > > Okay, let’s take a look at what Trump didn’t do when Kelly was Chief of Staff: > > • Trump **didn’t** condemn white supremacists at Charlotteville, instead saying they were “good people”; > > • Trump **didn’t** keep together families who crossed the border illegally, instead separating young children from their parents; > > • Trump **didn’t** work together with the US’s long-standing allies on trade issues, instead preferring to support autocrats; > > • Trump **didn’t** condemn the execution of a US journalist on the orders of the Saudi Crown Prince; > > • Trump **didn’t** live up to long-standing commitments to the US’s Kurdish allies, instead throwing them to the mercy of their Turkish enemies, at the request of the increasingly-autocratic President of Turkey; > > • Trump **didn’t** accept the unanimous advice from the US intelligence agencies that Russia had interfered in US elections, instead accepting the word of the President of Russia that Russia would never do such a thing; > > • Trump **didn’t** keep the US government open and functioning. > > Heck of a job there, Kelly! Good list. Trump also didn’t divest, or put anything in a truly “blind” account. He is “emolumating” all over the place. Or produce his tax returns. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/24 "2019-01-02T15:35:50Z")
I do hope Kelly is going to be forthcoming some day with how much \*more \*damage that over-aged child would have done without his own parental supervision. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/25 "2019-01-02T15:43:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Kelly’s proven to be a dishonorable, dishonest man. It’s sad that he was able to make it to flag level in the military. So did Traitor Flynn. And Benedict Arnold. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/26 "2019-01-02T16:36:53Z")
Kelly would have done us all a bigger favor by simply letting Trump be Trump. If his argument is that he prevented him from inflicting irreparable damage, well how is he or anyone going to stop that now? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/27 "2019-01-02T16:54:51Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It’s almost as if Trump is a stress-test for virtue and ethics. Everyone he picks starts revealing deep flaws, which may not have been known before. It’s part of the meme that Trump ruins everything he touches. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/28 "2019-01-02T17:48:02Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > Revered before Trump? He thought these were the “best people”. He was wrong. Now he is right for lampooning these architects of failure. Perhaps he has seen these lifelong bureaucrats in action and has not been impressed. I mean how much failure can an organization manifest before the leaders are ridiculed? The US military has been jaw-droppingly incompetent for decades. That’s one reason I believe the military PC has ramped to such a crescendo. Overcompensation bursting through the seams. McChrystal has recently tried to swipe at Trump on the basis of “honesty”. Buddy, you killed for Bush/Cheney. The lapdog media lap up all lamebrain utterances by these characters without criticism. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/29 "2019-01-02T18:20:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > He was wrong. Now he is right for lampooning these architects of failure. Perhaps he has seen these lifelong bureaucrats in action and has not been impressed. > > I mean how much failure can an organization manifest before the leaders are ridiculed? The US military has been jaw-droppingly incompetent for decades. That’s one reason I believe the military PC has ramped to such a crescendo. Overcompensation bursting through the seams. > > McChrystal has recently tried to swipe at Trump on the basis of “honesty”. Buddy, you killed for Bush/Cheney. The lapdog media lap up all lamebrain utterances by these characters without criticism. Yes, even attempts at gas-lighting for Trump turn to shit. And that includes your posts. “The Turks have a homely proverb applied on such occasions: they say “the fish stinks first at the head”, meaning, that if the servant is disorderly, it is because the master is so.” - Sir James Porter ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/30 "2019-01-02T18:39:46Z")
In what I assume is a related thread in GD, I expressed my opinion thusly: > [@Ethics: Mitigating an atrocity - doing good, or accomplice to evil?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-mitigating-an-atrocity-doing-good-or-accomplice-to-evil/827093/4): > > Generally I think that, because we can only ever observe one timeline, people who do that kind of “good” need to be content with the fact that their legacy will likely be negative. > > It may be that you believe that you are working for the greatest achievable good within a system, but you can never truly know what you might have accomplished by opposing a system outright, nor what kind of change you may quash by aligning yourself with the system. > > I think it’s not an unreasonable position for a person to take, but I also don’t see how it can be seen as ethical, as it’s ethical only in contrast to a hypothetical that we can’t be sure of. > > But to address your OP more specifically, the ethical line between “peaceful execution” and “painful execution” is invisible compared to the ethical line between “execution” and “no execution”. While I’d have my preferences as to which way I’d like to be murdered, their crimes are fundamentally equal in my book. IOW, unless Kelly can show that he literally wrestled Trump away from the “nuclear holocaust button” and the “kill all Mexicans” button, I think he and others like him, even if they truly believe they were doing “the right thing” by being moderating influences in this administration, are going to have to settle for the fact that at best they did a thankless and invisible duty, and that perhaps their own beliefs as the the importance and effectiveness of their interventions are wildly out of step with practical outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/31 "2019-01-02T18:57:07Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I just finished the Theranos book, Bad Blood, and I had no idea [Mattis was involved](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&q=mattis+theranos) and how absolutely stupid and reckless he was. Particularly because his recklessness and greed would have been at the expense of American troops. I’m aware he served on the board of Theranos, but posting a google barf of “Mattis + Theranos” isn’t exactly evidence that he did something wrong. As far as I know, he knew nothing that the company was a scam. If you have something more to add I’d be happy to read it – but I’d expect something more than what you’ve provided so far. Moreover, none of that has anything to do with the point that Mattis found ways to subtly push back on Trump’s idiotic policies. Compare Mattis’ slow-walking of Trump’s dumb transgender ban to Kelly’s enthusiastic embrace of separating families at the border in order to punish migrants, for example. Yeah, Mattis could not negate Trump’s stupidity, but he wasn’t egging it on in the way Kelly did, either. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/32 "2019-01-02T19:11:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yes, even attempts at gas-lighting for Trump turn to shit. > > And that includes your posts. > > “The Turks have a homely proverb applied on such occasions: they say “the fish stinks first at the head”, meaning, that if the servant is disorderly, it is because the master is so.” - Sir James Porter Leftists jock paid killers and spooks now. A return to their pro-Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Castro days perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/33 "2019-01-02T19:17:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m aware he served on the board of Theranos, but posting a google barf of “Mattis + Theranos” isn’t exactly evidence that he did something wrong. As far as I know, he knew nothing that the company was a scam. If you have something more to add I’d be happy to read it – but I’d expect something more than what you’ve provided so far. > > Moreover, none of that has anything to do with the point that Mattis found ways to subtly push back on Trump’s idiotic policies. Compare Mattis’ slow-walking of Trump’s dumb transgender ban to Kelly’s enthusiastic embrace of separating families at the border in order to punish migrants, for example. Yeah, Mattis could not negate Trump’s stupidity, but he wasn’t egging it on in the way Kelly did, either. Yes the transgender ban was of paramount importance because those individuals deserve to maim and murder like everyone else. He, hand in glove with Trump, orchestrated huge indefensible increases in defense spending, but, considering your location, perhaps that’s why you have taken to this post to fellate his legacy. I for one am glad he has been limited in his power to extract billions from taxpayers and instead will just be collecting checks from them and his clients. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/34 "2019-01-02T19:29:23Z")
Blah blah blah. Why don’t you tell me more about how great the Confederacy was? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/35 "2019-01-02T19:44:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Blah blah blah. Why don’t you tell me more about how great the Confederacy was? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/TrcM5exDxcc/maxresdefault.jpg "Nullification: Interview with a Zombie") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrcM5exDxcc) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/36 "2019-01-02T19:52:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > [https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=TrcM5exDxcc](https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=TrcM5exDxcc) I can only assume that this is a link to some self-taught Austrian school “economist” arguing how Lincoln shouldn’t have freed the slaves, and how child abuse is okay if there’s a market for it. The stuff that’s right up your alley. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/37 "2019-01-02T20:03:14Z")
You can assume whatever you like. It fits your trope perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/38 "2019-01-02T20:04:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Leftists jock paid killers and spooks now. A return to their pro-Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Castro days perhaps. More nonsense and stupid conspiracy thinking. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/39 "2019-01-02T20:10:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > More nonsense and stupid conspiracy thinking. What exactly is conspiratorial about your support of mercenaries and spooks? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045/40 "2019-01-02T20:11:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I can only assume that this is a link to some self-taught Austrian school “economist” arguing how Lincoln shouldn’t have freed the slaves, and how child abuse is okay if there’s a market for it. The stuff that’s right up your alley. Nailed in one, that was Tom Woods: [http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/editorial\_opinion/oped/articles/2005/02/21/last\_of\_the\_confederates/](http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/02/21/last_of_the_confederates/) > [@](#): > > Meet Thomas E. Woods Jr., assistant professor of history at Suffolk County Community College on Long Island and author of ''The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History." A main selection of the Conservative Book Club, it has been propelled to the New York Times best-seller list with help from talk shows such as Fox News’s ''Hannity & Colmes." > > The book’s back cover promises a refutation of ''myths" written into textbooks and popular history books by left-wing academics. But don’t expect a book that celebrates American heroes and American accomplishments as an antidote to hand-wringing over the sins of dead white males. > > If there are any American heroes in Woods’s book, apart from the Founding Fathers, it’s the Southerners who fought for the Confederacy. Abraham Lincoln is on the villain side of the ledger. > > Woods makes the disclaimer that ''no one, of course, mourns the passing of the slave system." However, he apparently thinks the Southern states should have been allowed to abolish slavery in due time without federal intervention. In any case, to hear Woods, the ''War Between the States" had hardly anything to do with slavery: The South really fought for self-determination, the North for its economic interests. (Ironically, on the latter point Woods is in agreement with most left-wing historians.) > > The book’s obvious sympathy for the Southerners and their suffering is matched by a lack of any acknowledgment of the horror of slavery – or any moral revulsion at the fact that some Americans owned, and defended the ''right" to own, other human beings. > > Much of the book’s second half rails against the evils of American intervention abroad. As with the Civil War, the moral issues in World War II (Woods deplores US involvement) go virtually unmentioned. Woods rightly assails Franklin D. Roosevelt for his willingness to throw Eastern Europe to the Soviets – then slams Harry Truman’s strategy of assisting nations threatened by a communist takeover as more ''big government" liberalism. In one example of his selective approach to facts, he quotes an investigator’s assertion in 1999 that no mass graves of ethnic cleansing victims were uncovered in Kosovo – without mentioning that the remains of at least 4,000 were found by 2001. > > ''The Politically Incorrect Guide" isn’t always incorrect. Woods is right that Cold War-era Soviet espionage was not just Joe McCarthy’s fantasy. His critical view of FDR’s New Deal is shared by mainstream free market economists. Unfortunately, whatever solid arguments this book has can only be tainted by association with Woods’s ultra-reactionary extremism. > > The full extent of that extremism is camouflaged in the book. The author’s official bio leaves out the fact that Woods is a co-founder and member of pro-secession League of the South. Here’s a sample of the League’s views, from a position paper: ''Today’s white Christian Southerners are the blood descendants of the men and women who settled this country and gave us the blessings of freedom and prosperity. To give away this inheritance in the name of ‘equality’ or ‘fairness’ would be unconscionable." While generously urging ''Christian charity" toward blacks, the paper denounces the idea that ''Southerners should give control over their civilization and its institutions to another race, whether it be native blacks or Hispanic immigrants." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kelly-wants-us-to-judge-him-by-what-trump-didnt-do/827045.md?page=3)