# (Ken Burns) Country Music Documentary **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 16, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317 "2019-09-16T15:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/161 "2019-09-29T02:25:19Z")
The people who collected songs were not passive. They made thousands of inquiries, drove thousands of miles, wrote down obscure generations-old songs people remembered from their youth. (A.J.’s wife Sara heard “I’m Thinking Tonight Of My Blue Eyes” when she was a girl, the song was older). Some of them spent so much time on the road their marriages broke up. Who’s to say if they gave people anything in exchange for their song? I admit they probably didn’t, but don’t know that. These songs may have been lost forever if someone didn’t collect them. I don’t think most of them wrote anything, they just remembered songs from their youth. It might have been a rip-off. Perhaps it was unfair. There is a chance it was shady, but not if they stated their intentions. The Carter Family basically launched what became country music, and that is what paid for motorcycles, which is surely a pretty modest gain. I was also disappointed the wrestling singer, “The Honky Tonk Man” was not more prominently featured. 😉 And I have really began to like Kris Kristofferson after listening to more of his stuff. Can’t believe I knew so little about him, though of course I’d heard a few songs by him. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/162 "2019-09-29T06:01:37Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > How much did Aaron Copland pay the Amish for taking their hymn [Simple Gifts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLAnuG1340g) and dropping it into [Appalachian Spring](https://youtu.be/WVahuS9hk_s?t=1086)? > > Sad to say, the history of music is replete with people ripping off traditional folk songs and turning them into moneymakers. Feel more sorry for W.W. Fosdick and George R. Poulton, who clearly published [Aura Lea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aura_Lea)during the Civil War, and didn’t even get a mention when _Love Me Tender_ came out in 1956. My rebuttal to that was to wonder if Copland et al went around scouring the countryside for those songs, or just passively heard them in various places and passed them on. It’s still maybe not exactly right, but I sort of take the opposite tack that Paprika seems to, which is that if you are the first to profit off of a song that everybody kind of knows, that’s not as bad as treating it like you are a prospector in a gold rush and the simple countryfolk are the (uncompensated) veins of gold you are exploiting. If the idea is to genuinely preserve folkways, that sounds like a job for some kind of academic music historian or New Deal researcher. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/163 "2019-09-29T06:18:47Z")
People did go preserve songs. [Archive of Folk Culture - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archive_of_Folk_Culture) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/164 "2019-09-29T06:22:56Z")
Good on them! Quite different from what A.P. did. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/165 "2019-09-29T08:43:50Z")
I’ve thought about it, and I’ve changed my mind a bit about A.P. Carter’s song collecting. Probably most of the songs were folk music, and thus in the public domain. He wasn’t stealing from the people he got the songs from, but at the same time he shouldn’t have copyrighted them. Only the author of a work (or the author’s employer, if it’s a work for hire) is legally allowed to copyright the work. His improper copyrights resulted in him and his family getting royalties they weren’t entitled to. By contrast, John and Alan Lomax didn’t file for copyrights on the songs they collected. As for Simple Gifts and Aura Lee, the former was originally written in 1848 and the latter in 1861. They were well out of copyright by the time Aaron Copland and Elvis Presley (actually George R. Poulton and Ken Darby) got to them. Also,in both cases the composer/songwriter changed the original in substantial ways. Copyright law recognizes derivative works, in which new works use elements of existing ones. Copland’s copyright on Appalachian Spring didn’t entitle him to royalties on anyone else’s use of Simple Gifts, unless they did it in a way that copied Appalachian Spring. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/166 "2019-09-29T08:47:40Z")
Good points. Seems to me they could have made plenty of money just from recording these songs and selling lots of records and did not have to actually copyright them as though they had written them. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/167 "2019-09-29T13:37:33Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Is he that guy with the weird vibrato voice? No mention that I’m aware of. He could be who you’re thinking of. [Here’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh-KEYAN9dg) some Gary Stewart. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/168 "2019-09-29T17:55:27Z")
I agree copyrighting them seems like the biggest abuse. If a researcher had collected songs for posterity no one would raise an eyebrow. Nice to read about preservation efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/169 "2019-09-29T22:08:08Z")
I’m not defending stealing songs, but let’s be realistic. So the Carter family sold 300,000 records. The publisher’s royalty on a record sale is something like 2 cents per song. That’s $6,000. Then there was sheet music - I’m not sure what the royalties were, but probably about the same. Sure the songs would be recorded over and over to provide A.P. with a steady income, but that kind of income didn’t make the Carter family millionaires. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/170 "2019-09-29T22:30:17Z")
So many peoole still had no electricity, so they couldn’t play records. That’s why radio shows became so popular. If they could scrape up enough for a battery operated radio, the music was free. Sheet music was for a educated person who could read music and had some proficiency on an instrument. The only folks making any amount of money were the Studio execs. Then the depression hit. By all accounts A.P. Carter was a strange guy. Mabel said he might sing or he might look out of a window at recording sessions. They were splitting money up amongst too many people. They weren’t rich. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/171 "2019-09-30T12:49:18Z")
Another thing mentioned that highlights how little money the Carters made. In the late 60s Mother Maybelle was working as a nurse to make ends meet. These were not people who got rich off of others. And the people they heard the songs from were unlikely to be the authors. Also keep in mind that an arrangement or new variation of a song can be copyrighted. So income can be shared with the original author and the new author. And if there is no identifiable original author, where is the money supposed to go??? I really, really hope that this “The Carter family got rich off others.” thing will die the death it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/172 "2019-09-30T13:01:37Z")
I really don’t have a dog in this fight, but given how destitute the Carters appear to have been BEFORE they recorded anything - having to agree to hoe a cornfield to borrow a relative’s car, it is pretty clear that they significantly improved their financial situation - buying houses, property, instruments, vehicles. They were definitely making fine wages from Ol’ Dr. Goat Nuts. Whether or not Maybelle hung onto any profits 30 yrs later may not be terribly relevant. Copyright, writing credits, etc. has long been a complex issue in recorded music. When they travelled back home over Clinch Mountain, I wonder if they did the [backstep](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnJfT1tyzYk)?! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/173 "2019-10-02T00:36:09Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I’m not defending stealing songs, but let’s be realistic. So the Carter family sold 300,000 records. The publisher’s royalty on a record sale is something like 2 cents per song. That’s $6,000. Then there was sheet music - I’m not sure what the royalties were, but probably about the same. Sure the songs would be recorded over and over to provide A.P. with a steady income, but that kind of income didn’t make the Carter family millionaires. But that Wikipedia article said they had sold 300,000 records _before_ AP got the idea to go start “collecting” songs and copyrighting them. That was his lightbulb moment that it could be a lucrative endeavor. No figures were given for how many he sold after that point. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/174 "2019-10-02T01:05:29Z")
Unfortunately, I haven’t seen the series because I’ve been very busy at work. But from reviews of the series, it sounds like all country crossover artists (Eddy Arnold, Jim Reeves, Kenny Rogers,etc.) have been almost totally ignored. Is that right? And does anyone think that’s effected the series? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/175 "2019-10-02T01:51:15Z")
Oh, no. Alot of groups and singers were shorted. It was a good over all series, IMO. It would take many many more episodes if they mentioned everyone. In a preview interview Burns said there were people who weren’t featured. Maybe he’ll make a part 2. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/176 "2019-10-02T02:52:57Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Unfortunately, I haven’t seen the series because I’ve been very busy at work. But from reviews of the series, it sounds like all country crossover artists (Eddy Arnold, Jim Reeves, Kenny Rogers,etc.) have been almost totally ignored. Is that right? And does anyone think that’s effected the series? Kenny’s in there, specifically how he went from The First Edition to a big star with “The Gambler”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/177 "2019-10-02T03:28:44Z")
Jim Reeves was in there too. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/178 "2019-10-02T03:38:07Z")
I remember Eddy Arnold being included. I just checked the track listing for the companion CD, and he’s there with _I’ll Hold You In My Heart (Till I Can Hold You In My Arms)_. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/179 "2019-10-02T12:16:11Z")
Mildly interesting op-ed in the paper the other day, comparing what the series described about country incorporating diverse influences - black spirituals, British Isles fiddle music, polkas - what might today be called cultural appropriation. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317/180 "2019-10-02T13:38:30Z")
Watched the first half of part 6 last night. Lot of Waylon Jennings. One thing that bugs me is the omission of names. E.g., they mention the Buddy Holly plane crash that Jennings avoided being on by random. (No mention of the coin flip.) So Holly and two other musicians died. What, you can’t say “Richie Valens and The Big Bopper”??? A lot of stuff like this. I am continually amazed (and at this point shouldn’t be) by the weirdness of record execs. So someone sees Jennings and his band performing their music in Arizona. Contract ensues. The record company doesn’t allow Jennings to select the music, use his band, or write his own songs. Things don’t go well until he gets a contract to negate all that. Then success happens. Why on Earth do you sign someone and then not allow them to do what you liked them doing? But it’s an oft told tale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-burns-country-music-documentary/840317.md?page=10)