Ken Burns' JAZZ...I ain't gonna bother

The BBQ Pit
21

I haven’t seen the series yet. However it sounds like he real title should be “BLUES.” If Mr. Burns gets through the mid century without mentioning some of the great bands like Glen Miller, Bennie Goodman, Woody Herman, etc. And later Stan Kenton, Vince Girauldi (sp?), etc.

I happened to see Lionel Hampton perform live. His band’s version of “Sing, Sing, Sing” was one of the most incredible things I’ve ever heard. That said, Bennie Goodman’s was as good, just different.

To get to the point (too late!), While the roots of jazz are in the African American expierience, you don’t have to be black to be a good jazz artist. It’s like doing a documentary on classical music and focusing only on the German composers.

22

Revedge, watch the documentary, then make comments.

In defense of Crouch and Marsalis: Talking Head documentaries put alot of pressure on the “heads” to say something profound about the obvious. Hence Crouch’s “jellyroll” quotes and Marsalis’s speech about race. I think Mr. Rocco of the Original Dixiland Jazz Band said all there needed to be said about race and Marsalis’s comments deadened the impact.

I would have liked to hear the historian’s thoughts on this. Would jazz had had (would have had? have had?) the same impact on America if the first recordings were made by a black band?

23

Well, to defend Crouch and Marsalis (I can’t believe I’m doing that again), they include Beiderbecke and Goodman at least in their personal pantheon, at least as far as this series is concerned. As the head of Jazz at Lincoln Center, Marsalis has been accused of slighting the melatonin-challenged over the years, and I can only assume that this, like every other idea he entertains, has been placed in his cranium by Crouch. (Talk about Trilby and Svengali…)

Crouch, in his political and cultural writing, strikes me as a bit on the reactionary side. Not a complete screwball like Clarence Thomas or Thomas Sowell, but a little more backward-looking that I can agree with. He has a reverence for jazz that verges on the loopy, and I’m sure that the engine that drives it is racial pride, and he’s disinclined to promote the legacies of some white performers.

In any case, I’d argue that “sweet” bands like Glenn Miller’s SHOULD be left out. (Not that he will be; a full segment is being devoted to the years 1937-1939.) Woody Herman and Stan Kenton, on the other hand, need to be mentioned if only because they served as testing grounds for nearly every great white jazz musician since 1945: Shorty Rogers, Jimmy Giuffre, Art Pepper, Stan Getz, Conte Candoli, Bud Shank, Shelley Manne, etc.

24

Interesting question. Would rock ‘n’ roll have been as big as it was in the 1950s without Elvis to present it to white audiences?

Most of the important jazz recordings of the 1920s were made as “race records,” marketed only to urban blacks (including Armstrong’s Hot Fives and Hot Sevens, recorded in Chicago). Rural Southern blacks preferred acoustic blues, white rural people from West Virginia down to the Deep South had “hillbilly records” pitched at them.

All of these records, most of which had small print runs, were prized by collectors by the 1960s and 1970s. Harry Smith’s famous early-1950s ANTHOLOGY OF AMERICAN FOLK MUSIC was based on commercially recorded blues and country music.

By the 1920s, America became “jazz crazy.” There were some hints of this in last night’s show; episodes 2 and 3 will cover it more fully, I’m sure. Marketers stuck “jazz” on products the way Detroit stuck big tail-fins on cars in the 50s. Big commercial dance bands, like Paul Whiteman’s, included a couple of musicians who could play “hot”…Eddie Lang, Joe Venuti, Frankie Trumbauer, Bix Beiderbecke.

I suppose if Freddie Keppard had gone ahead and become the first recorded jazz player, fewer whites would have heard the record. It may have taken jazz a little longer to catch on with the public at large, but the same trickle-down would have occurred.

25

I’ve been reading this thread with some interest after getting e-mail from both Barnes & Noble and Amazon.com for their Ken Burns’ Jazz collections. I hate to point this out since I haven’t participated in this thread, but, uh, Ike, when you said

I think you meant to say melanin-challenged. Unless you meant that he was discriminating against insomniacs…

26

I also spelled Shelly Manne incorrectly.

Thank you! Ding! Come again!

27

As a public service for the Eve-deprived SDMB, I’m cutting and pasting her e-mailed comments about the show (with her permission, of course).

Assume you saw “Jazz” last night? Well, I’m no Jazzbo…but I thought it was OK, though Stanley Crouch’s lips frighten me, and I did get weary of all those Marsalii. I am surprised that no one seems to know what “Creole” means–it’s a native Louisianan, has nothing to do with race. And of course the contribution of Eastern Europeans was completely ignored. The section on Sidney Bechet–was that actually him playing, by the way?–that music sounded EXACTLY like the Russian klezmer music my grandfather used to listen to. I’ll probably watch the whole thing, though frankly, I stop liking jazz around 1935 or so. It did get me interested enough to want to do some research (my library is getting me “In Search of Buddy Bolden,” is it any good?). And I loved seeing all the old New Orleans photos. That’s what I like about the Burns boys (and Kevin Brownlow), they never sink to using dressed-up actors doing “historical re-creations.” Those things always send me diving for the remote. I don’t have the time (or energy!) for the board, but feel free to cut-and-paste any of the above into an appropriate thread, if you think Eve’s uneducated two cents would be welcome . . .

28

I have to agree with Eve on those lips. And Wynton’s tie was choking me.

29

Ouch…yeah, I noticed that too. He doesn’t seem to have a particularly fat neck…wonder why his tailor insists on keeping him in a Size Thirteen collar? Maybe that was why his trumpet tone seemed a mite pinched.

Bet he was peeved about those extreme close-ups: No opportunity to show off his outfit. “Scuse me, I’m just going to stand up here so you can see the fit of these trousers. Nice pleats, huh? And how about these shoes? These shoes put me back SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS.”

30

I’ve been looking forward to watching “Jazz”, and did so last night. I thought it was a decent intro, though it did let you know it was The Book of Wynton from the start. Worth even the rather shallow writing to see the photographs.

Now here’s my own particular Yaaaaarrrgggghhhh:

I’m not a jazz expert, but I do know blues, and their history in common. During the segment detailing the influence of ragtime from the Midwest, and, as they put it, “Delta Blues”, the background music used was two songs by Fred McDowell,Soon One Mornin’ and Fred McDowell’s Blues, as well as one by Rose Hemphill,Rolled and Tumbled. As they were explaining the basic musical structure of Delta Blues, these songs were used as examples. But those three songs were recorded in 1959 by Alan Lomax, and are Hill Country Blues, which is a significantly different style, and not the blues that would likely influence New Orleans musicians. Why choose that when there are many more readily available, historically accurate examples, Charley Patton being the foremost?

I know that this is a couple of minutes in the scope of the production, but it’s shoddy scholarship. This is elementary knowledge to any blues historian, and I’m sure the Burns mark would be a fine cherry on the CV of anyone asked. With the budget and reputation he has, t’ain’t no excuse for poor work.

Perhaps the most unfortunate circumstance, in terms of a Shelby Foote style narrator, is one of time. If this had been done ten years ago, Albert Murray would have been the logical choice. He is the mentor of both Marsalis and Crouch, but has the storytelling ability , intellectual rigor, and charisma in league with Foote. He is a commentator in the series, but, in his eighties, is too frail to carry that weight.

I had the pleasure of helping ferry Murray around Mississippi a few years ago. He was in a wheelchair, and physically frail then, but his mind was as sharp as ever. I’d ask a question, and then just be mesmerized by his brilliance in answering it, and many others I hadn’t even thought to ask. As he left, boarding the plane in Memphis, I was still listening as he was wheeled up the ramp into the plane. (Uke: this was a question about the “Third Line of jazz”, do ya know it?) A truly amazing man; I’m sorry that this isn’t “his” show. It should be. The bits of diamond that Marsalis occassionaly utters are straight from Albert Murray.

Two of Murray’s books that bear reading on the subject: Stomping The Blues(really about jazz) and The Omni Americans.

Well, that’s the few pennies I can rustle up outta my odd pockets of knowledge. I do plan on watching the whole thing, though.

31

Of course, I got lured in despite my protests and am enjoying it. But I was never one of those anal-retentive, obsessing on every note and every minor bit of arcana, oh-dear-God-will-you-PLEASE-get-a-life-and-shut-up, intellectual-white-boy jazz fans. I did enough of that with mid-to-late-sixties rock while making fun of the jazz fans.

I’m noting the odd program lengths and wondering if that’s just how long they turned out, timeslot be damned, or if the first one will fit into a two-hour slot when you add pledge breaks, the second into a 2-1/2 hour slot, etc.

But it’s just TV and you can’t expect miracles. So Ken Burns has the clout to put together his own cutesy macroseries on jazz. Does that prevent any of us from making contributions of our own? Will it be remembered as gospel in a hundred years? Why don’t we just shut up, log off, and make some music instead of griping about the work of somebody else? Isn’t the point of jazz self-expression?

As the label of R Crumb’s records says, “Music self-played is happiness self-made.”

32

drop: Well, yeah, I can’t say I don’t agree with you. (I kin play “Memphis Blues” on the pee-yanner!) Crumb has it right on performing your own music…I’ve always thought he was right on just about everything. (I once told Denis Kitchen that I was patterning my life after Crumb’s, and he told me to get therapy.) I play music on a whole buncha instruments, but I also play the stereo…it’s hard to finger a saxophone properly when you’re cooking dinner.

elelle: “Third Line of Jazz” ? Ummm…in New Orleans-style polyphonic jazz, the “third line” was usually taken by the trombone, which played harmonically and added ornatments through the swoop of the slide. The first line (melody) was usually the cornet, and the second line was the clarinet, playing above the melody line.

If you meant “Third STREAM,” that refers to a movement in the 1950s, started by composers with a hankering for big arrangements, which attempted to fuse improvised jazz with arranged neo-Classical orchestrations. Gunther Schuller was the main proponent, and mainline jazzbos who contributed included John Lewis, J.J. Johnson, George Russell, and Jimmy Giuffre.

Okay…main bitch about last night’s installment: They finally got around to showing a lengthy film clip of Louis Armstrong, after oceans of blather about his genius and how he had “a light in his tone.” He was onstage, playing “Tiger Rag.” Just as we’re getting into the swing of it, and enjoying watching his fingering and listening to how he’s bending his notes, Wynton starts fucking TALKING.

What was UP with that?

Good stuff: The James Reese Europe stuff was fascinating. He doesn’t show up in any of the standard jazz histories. Loved the swinging version of the French Nat’l Anthem!

And it’s always fun to see film clips of Duke Ellington. He was one charming, funny bastard. Stopping in the middle of “Soda Fountain Rag”…“I can’t play that one any more. Too hard.”

33

Of course, I’m no one to talk, since I am the world’s worst musician to have actually taken lessons. But the show has me jamming in my head

“…Wynton starts fucking TALKING. What was UP with that?”

Shows the limitations inherent in the technology of the TV documentary. It could be handled better in a more flexible format, like DVD, where you could turn the commentary on and off.

“The James Reese Europe stuff was fascinating.”

Yeah; I had never heard of him. Cool stuff.

“…Duke Ellington.”

But will all of the credit be given to Ellington, as a member of the “pantheon,” or will he share some with Billy Strayhorn?

34

Ike, you had it right in the first place. I got so bored last night being told how great Louis Armstrong was without being told WHY that I quit watching half-way through. I was told that Burns eventually got to that point but my attention span was gone and I felt like my intelligence was raped a bit. Armstrong is great! Armstrong is great! Did we mention that Armstrong is great? Did we mention that you should take our word for it?

35

Sophie: Hee hee hee…I’m sure Eve won’t mind if I c&p a slice of her morning e-mail to me…

Also took note of the section wherein Louis Armstrong discovers the cure for polio, introduces Doug Fairbanks to Mary Pickford, and single-handedly captures Richard Bruno Hauptmann.

–Vampin’ Sal, the Sheik of Georgia

36

There is no “laughing my ass off” smile. :smiley:

37

While I was watching “Jazz” last night, I was reminded of an old commercial…

“We’ve secretly replaced Ken Burns’ documentary ‘Jazz’ with a documentary about Louis Armstrong! Let’s see his reaction when he finds out!”

Uke: Tell Eve I said “BWAAAAHAHAHA!”

38

Uke, did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, you aren’t the target audience? I doubt that the documentary series was intended to get you credit at any major (or minor) university. Don’t like Winton’s condensating tone? Just remember that they are trying to inform a general public that thinks Kenny G is a great musician. If Winton seems a little full of himself, well…how many musicians do you know that don’t have an ego the size of Texas?

So chill a little. Sit back and take in the series as a whole. Try to analyze it for what it is for. To entertain and educate (a little) a public that wouldn’t know a dorian mode if it hit them, and who think that jazz is something those burned out pot smoking has beens play in sleazy dives off Yessler’s corner in Seattle.

39

Had to quick hide behind my looming in-box to pop in here, as Ike tells me he is quoting me. A few notes on Ken Burns and His Hyperbole Players:

• LOVE their segments on Paul Whiteman, Bix [hubba hubba!] Beiderbecke, Bessie Smith and James Reese Europe.

• What—no Ma Rainey? No Cab Calloway? No mention of how Eastern European klezmer music influenced jazz?

• Donning sunglasses helps when Stanley Crouch appears onscreen. I have never before seen actual Day-Glo lips.

• Notice how EVERY recording, EVERY person they mention is always THE most important and influential ever in the history of the universe? Just once I would like to hear someone say, “awww, he was just OK.”

• I pretty much lose interest after 1935, but will keep watching so’s I can learn. However, from now on I will believe anything the Marsalii pour into my pretty shell-like ear, so I will rely in Ike to disabuse me of any misinformation.

P.S. Buddy Bolden died in 1931, not 1907, like they said in the special. Oops!

—“That ‘Jass’ Vampire”

40

Isn’t Calloway more Thirties than Twenties? They haven’t done more than to tip their toes into the Thiries, so far.

And I always thought Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw WERE klezmer players who got lucky that their music fit in with what was popular. Although mention should also be made that a reason jazz got accepted by whites so quickly was that it was similar to the ethnic music they already knew. I suppose the Academy paid as little attention to poor white folks’ music as that of poor blacks so jazz seemed to just materialize out of thin air.