# Ken Ham blames "Ark Encounter" failure on atheists **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575 "2017-06-21T23:28:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/281 "2018-09-22T00:26:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Maybe Ken should partner with the Schlitterbahn people and add a waterslide. so his attendance figures can really evolve. You do know that a child died on the Schlitterbahn’s “Verruckt” last year, don’t you? I was surprised it took as long as it did, because that thing was a disaster waiting to happen. Whoever designed and approved that thing was a Darwin Award winner by proxy. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/282 "2018-09-22T16:26:37Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > “Noah?” > > “Yes, Lord?” > > “How long can you tread water?” As much as I hate to mention his name, after all that’s happened, but isn’t this one of Bill Cosby’s 1960s stand-up jokes? We had the LP, called _Bill Cosby, Right!_ ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/283 "2018-09-22T16:52:34Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > As much as I hate to mention his name, after all that’s happened, but isn’t this one of Bill Cosby’s 1960s stand-up jokes? We had the LP, called _Bill Cosby, Right!_ Sure is. Hey, he was a funny guy. Just as OJ was an outstanding running back and likable celebrity. People are complex. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/284 "2018-09-23T02:33:23Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [So the Ark Park continues its downward spiral](http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2018/09/20/ark-encounter-sold-fewer-tickets-this-august-than-last-august/). Meanwhile, Kent “[_Hello, my name is Kent Hovind_](https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/wikileaks-released-kent-hovinds-doctoral-thesis/)” Hovind [has his own](http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2018/09/20/alabamas-dinosaur-adventure-land-is-a-sadder-cheaper-creation-museum/) [new Ark Park](https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2018/09/19/painted-plywood-dirt-trails-and-a-cornpone-old-guy/). Um, about a million guests a year, at $50 a pop, plus ancillary sales of food and gifts, which I’ll generously put at $20 a person (to include kids who came in free). We’ll call it $70M in gross revenue; profit margins on theme parks run from 20% to 40% but scale helps that, so we’re gonna go low-end, which is possibly still generous at 20% because I don’t know their fixed costs, and so realistically we’ll say $10M-$15M gross profit to investors, which might not actually bad given the locality helped fund a lot of it. My guess is he can hold off the creditors for a while, IF he can keep the turnstiles going at that rate. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/285 "2018-09-23T05:46:46Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Sure is. Hey, he was a funny guy. Just as OJ was an outstanding running back and likable celebrity. People are complex. Now I remember better–the title was _Bill Cosby Is A Very Funny Fellow, Right!_ When you think about the stand-up comic part of his career it really reminds you there was more to him than Jello Pudding commercials and Dr. Huxtable. His contribution to the 1960s wave of stand up comedy was highly creditable. And for some reason this makes his predatory criminal side all the more disappointing. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/286 "2018-09-23T08:24:52Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Um, about a million guests a year, at $50 a pop, plus ancillary sales of food and gifts, which I’ll generously put at $20 a person (to include kids who came in free). We’ll call it $70M in gross revenue; profit margins on theme parks run from 20% to 40% but scale helps that, so we’re gonna go low-end, which is possibly still generous at 20% because I don’t know their fixed costs, and so realistically we’ll say $10M-$15M gross profit to investors, which might not actually bad given the locality helped fund a lot of it. > > My guess is he can hold off the creditors for a while, IF he can keep the turnstiles going at that rate. you really think 3,600 people are going to this stupid Ark Museum every single day? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/287 "2018-09-23T13:31:21Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I think the blame is misplaced. He should look in the mirror first of all. Was he only letting visitors in two by two? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/288 "2018-09-23T14:14:46Z")
The Ark Encounter must be cleaning up on souvenirs. From an online review: _“We spent $90 in the gift shop and got tons (o)f stuff for my entire family.”_ The diorama of humans hunting dinosaurs to extinction a few hundred years ago is probably one of the big sellers. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/289 "2018-09-23T16:08:51Z")
Hey, I’d love to have a model of [this](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IJRHtYgqz10/WKswLG7fm9I/AAAAAAAABPE/FB0E9dyvJ3M-nyy_kvkSonUpAJBEHPZGwCLcB/s1600/gladiator-diorama.jpg) diorama. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/290 "2018-09-23T16:19:27Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Um, about a million guests a year, at $50 a pop, plus ancillary sales of food and gifts, which I’ll generously put at $20 a person (to include kids who came in free). We’ll call it $70M in gross revenue; profit margins on theme parks run from 20% to 40% but scale helps that, so we’re gonna go low-end, which is possibly still generous at 20% because I don’t know their fixed costs, and so realistically we’ll say $10M-$15M gross profit to investors, which might not actually bad given the locality helped fund a lot of it. > > My guess is he can hold off the creditors for a while, IF he can keep the turnstiles going at that rate. I’m curious, I looked around, but couldn’t find a good cite. Where are you getting a 20-40% profit margin from? That seems ridiculously high for any industry. Also, a business like that, profit margin is very reliant on sales. For restaurants, it is only about 20% of the revenue that goes to fixed costs, the rest goes into controlables, products, and labor. If a restaurant loses half its sales, fixed costs go up proportionally, but labor, products, and contralables can be scaled back. For an amusement park I would expect that to be the opposite, where the fixed costs dominate, labor can’t be cut by too much without actually shutting down exhibits, there aren’t all that many products to cut, and you can’t really cut controlables when doing so would mean shutting down parts of the park. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > The Ark Encounter must be cleaning up on souvenirs. From an online review: > > _“We spent $90 in the gift shop and got tons (o)f stuff for my entire family.”_ > > The diorama of humans hunting dinosaurs to extinction a few hundred years ago is probably one of the big sellers. And that may be the way that they manage to stay open a bit longer. Not through volume, but through upselling. There may not be as many fundamentalist young earth christians as he thought there would be wanting to come see his boat, but the ones that do are fanatical in their devotion. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/291 "2018-09-23T20:03:16Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > you really think 3,600 people are going to this stupid Ark Museum every single day? Actually I would go see it just for laughs. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/292 "2018-09-23T20:26:09Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Actually I would go see it just for laughs. > > Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk But would you pay the $50 entree fee for laughs, too? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/293 "2018-09-23T20:36:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m curious, I looked around, but couldn’t find a good cite. Where are you getting a 20-40% profit margin from? That seems ridiculously high for any industry. Table at the bottom. > **[The Business of Theme Parks (Part I): How Much Money Do They Make? – The Park DB](https://www.theparkdb.com/blog/the-business-of-theme-parks-part-i-how-much-money-do-they-make/)** ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/294 "2018-09-23T21:17:38Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Table at the bottom. > > [http://www.theparkdb.com/blog/the-business-of-theme-parks-part-i-how-much-money-do-they-make/](http://www.theparkdb.com/blog/the-business-of-theme-parks-part-i-how-much-money-do-they-make/) That’s not profit margin, that’s EBITDA. Which means that it does not account for a significant part of fixed costs. It is useful in comparing two similar companies to see which is more efficient at operations outside of finance, but once finance is factored in, that cuts into that 20-40% quite deeply. Earnings after Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization will be much, much lower. And the entire point of that paragraph, where it says “EBITDA margins at \*\*successful parks, \*\*regardless of their size, seem to be constrained in a tighter range of between 20-40%.” is that it is talking about successful parks, of which status we are debating whether applies to the Ark. The idea being, that if you are a successful park, you get to raise your ticket prices until you are profitable. I define success at business in being able to turn away customers, and turning them away by pricing them out while still staying at capacity is the most profitable way. Disney doesn’t need to charge as much as it does to make a profit, they charge as much as they do because they _can_. They charge the appropriate ticket price to make their park at capacity, and that price point makes them very profitable. Unless the Ark is operating at or near capacity, raising ticket prices will probably lower revenue. And if they are not operating at or near capacity, they are not one of the “successful” theme parks that your cite is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/295 "2018-09-23T21:40:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Unless the Ark is operating at or near capacity, Videos taken inside the Ark show long empty corridors with few or no other people in sight. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/296 "2018-09-23T21:46:03Z")
And videos taken outside the Ark show empty parking lots with few people going in and out. Are there any Dopers who live in the area and have more to say about this? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/297 "2018-09-23T23:10:19Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > you really think 3,600 people are going to this stupid Ark Museum every single day? I’m going off the site linked above where they’ve been pulling the tax filings every month, though I note a number of complications after digging further: - in the second year, attendance went down to 863K paid attendees - the ticket price went up this year from $40 to $48 for regular attendees, though seniors and kids get in cheaper - I added $10 for parking above, but that’s a mistake since multiple people show up in cars. Figure +$4 based on 2.5 people per vehicle. - I completely missed that buying a ticket to the site PLUS the museum raises that standard ticket to $70! In any case, some guy from the Kentucky Paleontological Society pulls the Ark Encounter tax filing every month, so yes, the numbers are believable. And reading through the raft of TripAdvisor reviews (4.5 average), people seem willing to pay out a shitload of money…at least once. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/298 "2018-09-23T23:31:43Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Um, about a million guests a year, at $50 a pop, plus ancillary sales of food and gifts, which I’ll generously put at $20 a person (to include kids who came in free). We’ll call it $70M in gross revenue; profit margins on theme parks run from 20% to 40% but scale helps that, so we’re gonna go low-end, which is possibly still generous at 20% because I don’t know their fixed costs, and so realistically we’ll say $10M-$15M gross profit to investors, which might not actually bad given the locality helped fund a lot of it. > > My guess is he can hold off the creditors for a while, IF he can keep the turnstiles going at that rate. I reworked the numbers a little. Over the past 12 months, they’ve had 847,732 visitors, using the tax data, which is below projections. Jul-Aug 2018 came in below Jul-Aug 2017. Adults are charged $48 each, but youth are charged $25 and younger kids $15. Seniors are $38. Assuming 40% of visitors are adults, 10% seniors, and 50% children or youth, split 50-50 for each. I would think those are optimistic numbers and that children should be weighed heavier. Assume each visitor spends $15 each _after_ subtracting out cost of goods sold. That sums to $40.7 million in revenue and falling. I don’t know what their labor costs are. But my WAG is that the park will be around for a while. Investors are angel investors. Private individuals can even light their money on fire by purchasing bonds in this venture. They receive public subsidies. Their labor pool is motivated and can be persuaded to take below market wages. Even if attendance halves, I suspect they can still cover their labor costs. You’re in pretty good shape if your investors are willing to take a bath. Change assumptions: 25% adults, 65% children, 10% seniors. $37.1 million revenue. Huh. Not too different. Ninja’d ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/299 "2018-09-24T00:16:23Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I reworked the numbers a little. > > Over the past 12 months, they’ve had 847,732 visitors, using the tax data, which is below projections. Jul-Aug 2018 came in below Jul-Aug 2017. Adults are charged $48 each, but youth are charged $25 and younger kids $15. Seniors are $38. Assuming 40% of visitors are adults, 10% seniors, and 50% children or youth, split 50-50 for each. I would think those are optimistic numbers and that children should be weighed heavier. Assume each visitor spends $15 each _after_ subtracting out cost of goods sold. That sums to $40.7 million in revenue and falling. > > I don’t know what their labor costs are. But my WAG is that the park will be around for a while. Investors are angel investors. Private individuals can even light their money on fire by purchasing bonds in this venture. They receive public subsidies. Their labor pool is motivated and can be persuaded to take below market wages. Even if attendance halves, I suspect they can still cover their labor costs. You’re in pretty good shape if your investors are willing to take a bath. > > Change assumptions: 25% adults, 65% children, 10% seniors. $37.1 million revenue. Huh. Not too different. > > Ninja’d I like the math work you did here, especially because I took the reported tax owed (2.28M, before the state gave 1.8M back in credits), and divided it by Kentucky’s corporate tax rate of 6%, and got $38M in revenue. It’s not clear that there are any deductions in that corporate tax rate, but eh…looks good to me. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575/300 "2018-09-24T00:20:17Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I reworked the numbers a little. > > Over the past 12 months, they’ve had 847,732 visitors, using the tax data, which is below projections. Jul-Aug 2018 came in below Jul-Aug 2017. Adults are charged $48 each, but youth are charged $25 and younger kids $15. Seniors are $38. Assuming 40% of visitors are adults, 10% seniors, and 50% children or youth, split 50-50 for each. I would think those are optimistic numbers and that children should be weighed heavier. Assume each visitor spends $15 each _after_ subtracting out cost of goods sold. That sums to $40.7 million in revenue and falling. > > I don’t know what their labor costs are. But my WAG is that the park will be around for a while. Investors are angel investors. Private individuals can even light their money on fire by purchasing bonds in this venture. They receive public subsidies. Their labor pool is motivated and can be persuaded to take below market wages. Even if attendance halves, I suspect they can still cover their labor costs. You’re in pretty good shape if your investors are willing to take a bath. > > Change assumptions: 25% adults, 65% children, 10% seniors. $37.1 million revenue. Huh. Not too different. > > Ninja’d It would also be an extremely useful vehicle for money laundering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-ham-blames-ark-encounter-failure-on-atheists/789575.md?page=16)