# Ken Lay's Death is BOGUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793 "2006-07-10T00:26:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/21 "2006-07-10T01:29:01Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Clam] Again, common sense argues against: if Lay wanted to blab on the Bush (assuming he was aiming for a reduced sentence) he would have done it before his trial began, rather than antagonising the judges by going through the useless rigmarole of a trial and _then_ turning squealer. Plus, he seems to have had a consistent belief that God would save him from serving his sentence (funny how that works out :D), so I doubt that he would have felt the need to try and rat anyhow. [/quote] Your argument here annihilates itself; by your own words, he wouldn’t turn on Bush because he thought he’d be found innocent. [QUOTE=Happy Clam] And, for that matter, if the dastardly Bush administration was going to kill Lay (presumably while twirling their black moustaches and cackling), why do it now? Simpler and safer to do so when the first Enron scandal was detected, if they were worried about Lay turning patsy. [/QUOTE] Because they are a bunch of screw ups ? Honestly, one of the major factors that makes me doubt that it was murder by the Bushites is that I’d expect them to screw it up somehow. [QUOTE=John Mace] You mean like the Clintons killling Vince Foster? Yeah, right. [/quote] Did Clinton have people kidnapped and tortured ? Clinton simply wasn’t the kind of fellow who _would_ have Foster assassinated; Bush _is_ the sort of man who’d murder Lay. Or his subordinates; they might do it without bothering to mention it to the idiot. [QUOTE=John Mace] Look, what secrets does Ken Lay and only Ken Lay know? [/QUOTE] By definition, I don’t know; otherwise, they wouldn’t be secrets. [QUOTE=John Mace] If you don’t, then you’re just one more conspiracy theorist, of which the world has an oversupply. [/QUOTE] I’m not a conspiracy theorist, I’m a cynic. I suspect Bush because I don’t expect any better of him. Nor do I firmly believe it; I’m more neutral on the idea, and was just mentioning a theory I’ve heard. Assuming a real investigation was possible, I wouldn’t be surprised at a guilty _or_ an innocent verdict. [QUOTE=Revtim] Although I would agree they’re done things morally worse, I don’t think they’ve done anything as legally risky. They know they’re going to have the support of plenty of Americans and no clear legal ramifications if they go to war over any damn reason, but if they get caught getting a guy whacked that’s another story. [/QUOTE] They appear to think themselves invulnerable, and that the public will put up with anything. They may be right. ---
**Author:** ![Mayo\_Speaks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mayo\_Speaks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mayo_Speaks)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/22 "2006-07-10T01:29:32Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Why do I smell a “What Bush would say if caught whacking Ken Lay” contest brewing? [/QUOTE] “Mission Accomplished!” “I’m the decider.” “I am a pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity.” They write themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/23 "2006-07-10T01:37:26Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] Just saying he _could_ be pulling the oldest trick in the book, and everybody he ripped off would be falling for it. [/QUOTE] Faking your own death is the oldest trick in the book? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/24 "2006-07-10T01:51:36Z")
I’m not buying into the conspiracy theories yet. But, I keep thinking about Dick Cheney. Now _that_ guy’s got a weak ticker, and should probably have kicked off a long time ago. But he’s got access to the best medical care in the country, and they’re not going to let him die, no matter how much his heart feels like it. Key Lay strikes me as being in the same league as far as available medical care. If “they” didn’t want him to die of a measly little ol’ heart attack, he wouldn’t have been allowed to. They’d keep his sorry ass going as long as needed. So how is it he was allowed to die “naturally,” what with all the medical care he surely had access to? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/25 "2006-07-10T02:05:26Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] Yes, I realize that to say he was murdered or is still alive with a face lift and new ID is a stretch . . . [/QUOTE] Actually, he’s in a deep freezer next to Walt Disney and Jimmy Hoffa, and you **will** hear from each of them again! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/26 "2006-07-10T02:14:14Z")
I want you to know you’re not alone. [http://kenlayisalive.org/](http://kenlayisalive.org/) ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/27 "2006-07-10T02:23:17Z")
People who are tossing around conspiracy theories keep being vague about what part of Lay’s knowledge would need to be covered up. “He knows where all the bodies are buried.” “He could have taken a lot of very powerful people with him.” etc… What, exactly, is unknown? We know that virtually the entire Enron coropration was built on fraud. We know that they reported nonexistent profits while hiding their losses in bogus offshore companies. We know that they bribed the Republicans (and, to a lesser extent, the Democrats) to get the necessary deregulation that allowed their schemes to move forward. We know that they deliberately manipulated prices and supplies to cause the California Energy Crisis. What’s left to figure out? Only a few details. Obviously the Bushies are remarkably callous about human life, but that doesn’t mean that death by natural causes has stopped occuring, I don’t think. This round of kook theories is as groundless and ridiculous as the claims (frequently made on hate radio and right-wing websites) that fifty of Bill Clinton’s business partners had died “under mysterious circumstances”. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/28 "2006-07-10T02:43:38Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You mean like the Clintons killling Vince Foster? Yeah, right. [/QUOTE] I have a GREAT idea. Let’s make sure that a special prosecutor is hired to investigate whether or not Bush was involved in the death of Ken Lay, even though there is absolutely no evidence that he was. And people who hate Bush can go on TV and endlessly speculate that Bush must have done it. After all, what’s fair is fair, right? ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/29 "2006-07-10T02:46:57Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] Faking your own death is the oldest trick in the book? [/QUOTE] You don’t think Cain really killed Abel, do you? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/30 "2006-07-10T03:22:43Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] There’s the argument that he was killed by the Bush Administration, before he implicated them in his misdeeds, or blabbed what he knew about theirs. I have no idea if they did, but I find it perfectly believable that they would; it would be small potatoes compared to some of the other stuff they’ve done. [/QUOTE] I used to think you were somewhat nuts, but still teetering on the edge of the abyss. Sorry I wasn’t able to get that going away gift to you before you jumped off. So Lay was smart enough to fleece thousands out of their retirements, not smart enough to keep from being caught, smart enough to set it up in a way that he could deflect blame, not smart enough to use that knowledge in the trial, smart enough to get out of court before sentencing to fake his death, but not smart enough to spill the beans before it came to this? I know what’s pissing you off about him. You don’t give a shit about those affected by the Enron fiasco. You’re pissed that he didn’t once and for all take Bush down. Had he done that I suspect he’d be the American version of Che to you. You know that feeling you get about the people bitching about Hillary killing Foster? look in the mirror. You’re just as nuts. I just pray to God you don’t actually have a position of any real power in our world. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/31 "2006-07-10T03:43:25Z")
**Moderator’s Warning:** OK, **duffer** , cool it or take it to the Pit. You’ve [racked up](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4923107&postcount=31) [several](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5988982&postcount=25) [warnings](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6595510&postcount=42) for [this sort of thing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7032451&postcount=61); you need to learn to watch your temper, or at a minimum you’ll be looking at a suspension of posting privileges. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/32 "2006-07-10T03:59:37Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Why do I smell a “What Bush would say if caught whacking Ken Lay” contest brewing? [/QUOTE] Whacking Ken Lay or whacking off Ken Lay? Because one is infinitely more disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/33 "2006-07-10T04:01:37Z")
Damnit, I almost made it a Pit thread, but figured it wasn’t Pit worthy. Sincere apology for posting that in the wrong forum. I should trust the instincts from now on. At least until the banning. I need to remember GD is the forum for accusing vast government entities of evil-doing. Murder, conspiracy, etc. I’ll try to stay in line. (Will probably regret the sarcasm). ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/34 "2006-07-10T04:12:59Z")
[QUOTE=duffer] I need to remember GD is the forum for accusing vast government entities of evil-doing. Murder, conspiracy, etc. I’ll try to stay in line. (Will probably regret the sarcasm). [/QUOTE] GD is also the forum for _refuting_ accusations of vast evil conspiracies by governments and other organizations–it’s just not the forum for taking personal potshots at other posters in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/35 "2006-07-10T04:35:40Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] Lay was friends with the most powerful men in the world and could have taken a lot of very powerful people with him if he wanted to make a plea bargain as the real depth of Enron’s corruption has never been nor will be fully explored. And now as a result of his death, it will never be. [/QUOTE] Except that Jeffrey Skilling is still alive and still set for sentencing in the fall. [QUOTE=Terrifel] Faking your own death is the oldest trick in the book? [/QUOTE] [Cecil doesn’t think so. Nor did he think it was possible.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010921.html) I agree, but maybe we’re all wrong and Kenny Boy is hanging out with Tupac and Andy Kaufman somewhere in the south Pacific. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/36 "2006-07-10T05:35:35Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I’m not a conspiracy theorist, I’m a cynic. I suspect Bush because I don’t expect any better of him. . . . [From earlier] Did Clinton have people kidnapped and tortured ? Clinton simply wasn’t the kind of fellow who _would_ have Foster assassinated; Bush _is_ the sort of man who’d murder Lay. [/quote] If you’re only cynical about people with a little (R) next to their name, then you’re not really cynical, you’re just partisan. If the only evidence you have to support your assertion is that “Bush is evil, so he’s the type of person that would have someone killed,” then I think I’ll go back to banging my head with a rock hammer. Much more enlightening, y’see. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/37 "2006-07-10T06:06:45Z")
[QUOTE=John Carter of Mars] Why yes, it’s all perfectly reasonable. He’s gone into hiding in Venezuela. Hitler, JFK and Jimmy Hoffa needed a fourth person to sit in on their poker games. [/QUOTE] I though Hitler and Eva were living at one the old Nazi bases in Antartica? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/38 "2006-07-10T07:14:46Z")
[QUOTE=Age Quod Agis] If you’re only cynical about people with a little (R) next to their name, then you’re not really cynical, you’re just partisan. [/quote] No, I’m partisan \*and \*cynical; I regard the Democratic leadership as scum and fools, and the Republican leadership as monsters and lunatics. I’m anti-Republican not pro Democrat, and I’m not fond at all of Clinton; I just don’t think he was the sort to assassinate a former associate. I don’t complain about Democrats because they are irrelevant. [QUOTE=Age Quod Agis] If the only evidence you have to support your assertion is that “Bush is evil, so he’s the type of person that would have someone killed,” then I think I’ll go back to banging my head with a rock hammer. Much more enlightening, y’see. [/QUOTE] If your going to complain about me, complain about what I actually say. I _didn’t_ say that was evidence; I didn’t say I _had_ evidence; I said that I’d heard the theory, and wouldn’t be surprised if it was true given what Bush and friends are like. ---
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/39 "2006-07-10T08:41:57Z")
less than 2 years from now the current President could have pardoned him for old times sake or whatever…His energies would have been better spent encouraging that future activity than plan :eek: his own death. ---
**Author:** ![Subway\_Prophet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Subway\_Prophet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subway_Prophet)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/40 "2006-07-10T13:11:14Z")
I’m surprised no one’s brought up what _I_ thought to be the second-most likely scenario: his family killed him off, in order to inherit as much as possible before the feds took away the money. The way I see it, Ken’s immediate family (or possibly a charity mentioned in the will) has the most to gain from this timely death. Does anyone know if they’re being investigated? The most likely scenario, of course, is that the copy of _Dance Dance Revolution: Punk Rock Overload_ he got for his birthday was not the most appropriate choice after all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793.md?page=3)