# Ken Lay's Death is BOGUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793 "2006-07-10T00:26:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![velveeta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/13edae/32.png) [@velveeta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velveeta)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/41 "2006-07-10T13:25:44Z")
[QUOTE=Subway Prophet] I’m surprised no one’s brought up what _I_ thought to be the second-most likely scenario: his family killed him off, in order to inherit as much as possible before the feds took away the money. [/QUOTE] I had this thought, but I figured he might do it himself so that his family would be spared the “embarrassment” of being poor. Is it true that the feds can’t touch the $140+ million they were supposed to sieze now? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/42 "2006-07-10T13:35:27Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Key Lay strikes me as being in the same league as far as available medical care. If “they” didn’t want him to die of a measly little ol’ heart attack, he wouldn’t have been allowed to. They’d keep his sorry ass going as long as needed. So how is it he was allowed to die “naturally,” what with all the medical care he surely had access to? [/QUOTE] Yes, because modern medicine can do that. Look, everyone knows there are 5 Dick Cheney’s - 2 are clones of the original Cheney who died in 1956 fighting the Nazis (yes, that’s right), two are robots and one is an alien replicant. Ironically, they are all very reclusive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/43 "2006-07-10T14:03:01Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] What about Elvis? You should have five for poker. I can see it now: Elvis “Common baby! Daddy needs a new pair of blue suede shoes!” Lay “I fold” Hitler “NEIN!!!” JFK “er aah..I need that two of spades like I need a hole in my head. Comaan Hoffa. You’ve been aah..uncharacteristicly tight-lipped tonight. Show us what you’ve got…” [/QUOTE] Nice comment, but _everybody_ knows Elvis is too cool to hang out with the likes of Hoffa, Hitler, etc. In fact, I know where Elvis is: Just a few weeks ago I was hangin’ out at the Flori-Bama Bar, down on the gulf coast, and about 4:00 AM Elvis and Natalie Wood stopped in for a drink. Swear to shit! Of course, I didn’t want to waste much time talkin’ to Elvis when Natalie was available, so I chatted her up some. She even invited me over to their place on Perdido Key. She said they’ve been chillin’ out at the condo they bought after Bill Gates sent her $10 million for forwarding emails to 23 people. ---
**Author:** ![Auntbeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/44 "2006-07-10T14:25:47Z")
The tell all book will make a fortune, especially if enough thinly veiled gossip is included. The family can get/keep all that profit. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/45 "2006-07-10T14:27:53Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] 2 are clones of the original Cheney who died in 1956 fighting the Nazis (yes, that’s right) [/QUOTE] That Nazi Moon Base Battle is still _classified_, **msmith537**. You are guilty of **TREASON**! ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/46 "2006-07-10T15:03:36Z")
I think it was suicide, either self-directed or encouraged by his family. Both Lay and his family knew he was going down, and knew that the best solution for the family’s money problems would be if he died. There are a number of drugs you can take that would cause a heart attack and would be untraceable. This way they can inherit a good percentage of his estate as well as the insurance money and they won’t be subject to the same criminal allegations. Problem solved, and his family still gets to live the high life. I just think the timing is too perfect for it to be a natural death. If that makes me a crazy conspiracy theorist so be it, but at least I don’t think he’s alive. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/47 "2006-07-10T15:55:44Z")
[QUOTE=Subway Prophet] I’m surprised no one’s brought up what _I_ thought to be the second-most likely scenario: his family killed him off, in order to inherit as much as possible before the feds took away the money. The way I see it, Ken’s immediate family (or possibly a charity mentioned in the will) has the most to gain from this timely death. Does anyone know if they’re being investigated? [/QUOTE] Except that’s ridiculous. It’s just as easy to sue Lay’s estate as it would be to sue Lay. The only disadvantage is that now any plaintiffs aren’t going to be able to use Lay’s conviction as part of their civil suit. And Lay didn’t have that much money left. Certainly not enough to pay off the billions of dollars that he defrauded people out of. Since all judgements against him have to be paid before the heirs get anything, Lay’s estate is underwater, nothing will be left. The heirs get nothing. The only thing that the plaintiffs won’t be able to touch is life insurance. I don’t know how much life insurance Lay had, but it’s not going to be a gigantic fortune for his heirs. And I image the life insurance company is going to do a little quiet investigation before they pay off any policies. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/48 "2006-07-10T17:48:33Z")
[Body of Enron’s Lay to be Cremated](http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/07/news/newsmakers/enron_lay.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes) to hide the evidence of course. Damn, people who try to argue “What could he possibly know?” piss me off. Well he wouldn’t have gotten killed for it if we already knew, would we? But he might not actually be dead, either. This could be an example of the big boys taking care of their own kind. Then the other guy who hired body guards commits suicide? Damn, you people sure can recognize a coincidence when you see one. [Powell Hospitalized Briefly In Aspen Hospital Where Ken Lay Was Admitted](http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004144534) Coincidence? Of course it is, everything on the straightdope is. [http://kenlaylives.blogspot.com/](http://kenlaylives.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/49 "2006-07-10T17:54:56Z")
Maybe he was killed to hide the truth about the electric sun. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/50 "2006-07-10T18:41:11Z")
The timing is convenient, the players ethically challenged enough, but taken together, it just doesn’t add up. If they were going to whack him, they’d have done it before the trial. On the other hand, he was a 64-year-old who had lived the high life for a long time and who had been under tremendous stress for the last five or six years, and was about to be sentenced to spend the rest of his life in jail. Occam’s Razor suggests his old ticker just flat gave out. As conspiracy theories go, this one is as crappy as [Jim Morrison faking his own death so he could work for the CIA](http://www.spunk.org/texts/altern/pub/keith/sp000436.txt). ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/51 "2006-07-10T19:03:17Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] Damn, people who try to argue “What could he possibly know?” piss me off. Well he wouldn’t have gotten killed for it if we already knew, would we? But he might not actually be dead, either. This could be an example of the big boys taking care of their own kind. Then the other guy who hired body guards commits suicide? Damn, you people sure can recognize a coincidence when you see one. [/quote] Okay, so he’s undoubtably either been murdered to prevent him from revealing secrets so devastating that we don’t know and can’t even guess at what they might be, or he’s alive and faked his own death? Miiiiight want to do a little more investigating before you take that one to the grand jury. > [@theFonz](#): > > [Powell Hospitalized Briefly In Aspen Hospital Where Ken Lay Was Admitted](http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004144534) > Coincidence? Of course it is, everything on the straightdope is. Gasp! That’s the same hospital where Hunter S. Thompson’s autopsy was performed!! What did he know?!? _What did he know?!?!?_ ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/52 "2006-07-10T19:38:48Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You mean like the Clintons killling Vince Foster? Yeah, right. [/quote] Somehow I don’t see Jerry Falwell selling videos touting “The Shocking Truth Behind Ken Lay’s ‘Death’” any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/53 "2006-07-10T19:42:55Z")
[QUOTE=davenportavenger] There are a number of drugs you can take that would cause a heart attack and would be untraceable. [/quote] Cite please. > [@](#): > > I just think the timing is too perfect for it to be a natural death. If that makes me a crazy conspiracy theorist so be it, but at least I don’t think he’s alive. The timing isn’t perfect. And if he died in prison, which was very likely, some people would still be suspicious (“he was going to write a book” or something). So I think there would have been a wide window for this allegedly perfect timing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/54 "2006-07-10T19:45:58Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] The only disadvantage is that now any plaintiffs aren’t going to be able to use Lay’s conviction as part of their civil suit. [/QUOTE] That’s a heck of a disadvantage, and a very good motive. > [@](#): > > And Lay didn’t have that much money left. Or so we are told. Do you believe OJ is broke? [QUOTE=pravnik] Okay, so he’s undoubtably either been murdered to prevent him from revealing secrets so devastating that we don’t know and can’t even guess at what they might be, or he’s alive and faked his own death? [/QUOTE] Or, behind door number three, we have suicide, to protect his fortune, and thus his family, from civil lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/55 "2006-07-10T20:00:10Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Cite please. [/QUOTE] [Potassium chloride](http://www.umanitoba.ca/centres/ethics/articles/Barticle1.htm): > [@](#): > > At 2.59pm Dr. Morrison returned to the bedside with a 10cc syringe of clear liquid that she began to inject into the i.v. When the nurse asked what it was, she answered: `It is KCl’ (p. 294). \*\*(KCl is potassium chloride, about which we will have much to say later.) Within a minute there was no electrical activity in the heart. \*\* Both the nitroglycerin and the KCl were administered by IV push, which caused the drug to move more quickly into the bloodstream than when given by infusion (p. 302). > … > The pathologist who examined the body after it was exhumed testified that, although there should have been traces of Dilaudid and morphine in the liver, he could not find any. He agreed with the defence counsel that the absence of these drugs in the liver was consistent with the theory that the drugs were not getting into the bloodstream (p. 495). **The reason that he could not find evidence of nitroglycerine or KCl was that they dissipate in the body fluids and quickly become undetectable**. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/56 "2006-07-10T20:30:16Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] That’s a heck of a disadvantage, and a very good motive. [/QUOTE] > **[Latest news & breaking headlines](https://www.thetimes.com/)** > > The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment. Lay’s estate is somewhere in the 10s of millions range. But he’s spent a lot on legal bills lately (your lawyer always gets paid first). By the time Feds and the employees and the creditors get done with his estate, it’s going to be worth negative one billion, even with the stockholders dropping out. And they’re only dropping out because the stockholders get paid LAST, so they have no chance of getting anything…the employees and creditors and Uncle Sam get their share first. Lay’s heirs get NOTHING except the insurance payments. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/57 "2006-07-10T20:32:26Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You mean like the Clintons killling Vince Foster? Yeah, right. Look, what secrets does Ken Lay and only Ken Lay know? If we start seeing all of his family and friends “disappear” in the next few weeks, then that might make sense. Otherwise, if you got evidence let’s see it. If you don’t, then you’re just one more conspiracy theorist, of which the world has an oversupply. [/QUOTE] Ask Jimmy Hoffa if he is with him? Hiding out in dark Detroit bars? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/58 "2006-07-10T20:56:29Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] > **[Latest news & breaking headlines](https://www.thetimes.com/)** > > The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment. Lay’s estate is somewhere in the 10s of millions range. [/QUOTE] Were you referring to this? : > [@](#): > > In recent court appearances, the Lays explained how they had next to nothing left, with much of their cash spent on legal bills, which amounted to more than $20 million. That is a rather self-serving statement which I am not incline to place much stock in. It will take a lot more to convince me that a man with the business acumen of Kenneth Lay didn’t know how to hide a sizable chunk of his fortune offshore. > [@](#): > > Lay’s heirs get NOTHING except the insurance payments. And the annuity. I wonder how much that is? ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/59 "2006-07-10T21:17:48Z")
Ok? So forget about _his_ fortune. Think about the billions he stole. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/60 "2006-07-10T21:38:30Z")
But those billions never existed! Enron never stole billions of dollars and put it in a swimming pool ala Scrooge McDuck, any more than the guy who racks up thousands of dollars in credit card debt. They paid off their creditors in phoney money, and when that bounced they used more phoney money to pay again. They reported that their company was worth billions but it was bankrupt. The people who bought Enron stock were buying wastepaper. The company didn’t quite steal billions, rather the company LOST billions and pretended to be solvent. And anyhow, how does killing Lay allow the heirs to get their hands on his secret slush funds? If they could steal the secret funds when he was dead, why couldn’t they steal the secret funds when he was alive? It’s not like those secret slush funds show up in the will. It’s not like they can show up in the Cayman Islands and say they’re the next of kin and the money laundering bank hands the money over. If there are secret flush funds that the heirs could get their hands on after Ken Lay’s death they could get their hands on it while he was alive. Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, this does not make sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793.md?page=4)