# Ken Lay's Death is BOGUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793 "2006-07-10T00:26:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Subway\_Prophet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Subway\_Prophet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subway_Prophet)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/81 "2006-07-11T13:07:44Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] And no, unless you’re the county coroner for Aspen Colorado or an immediate relation to Lay, you don’t get to see the body. Thems the breaks. [/QUOTE] Just think of the money the feds would recoup by putting his body on display, carnival-style. It’s an election year, it’s insane and goofy, therefore it has to work. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/82 "2006-07-11T13:10:25Z")
> [@](#): > > If he committed suicide. > > Which he likely didn’t. > > Sometimes people just drop dead. You have no evidence that anything besdies a heart attack happened at all besides a vague suspicion that this death was convienient to somebody somewhere. > > And no, unless you’re the county coroner for Aspen Colorado or an immediate relation to Lay, you don’t get to see the body. Thems the breaks. I wasn’t talking about Ken Lay, I was talking about Cliff Baxter the Vice Chairman who commited suicide just before he was set to testify before the house, a couple days after he hired body guards. Way to go, Doper. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/83 "2006-07-11T13:13:18Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] > **[Latest news & breaking headlines](https://www.thetimes.com/)** > > The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment. Lay’s estate is somewhere in the 10s of millions range. But he’s spent a lot on legal bills lately (your lawyer always gets paid first). By the time Feds and the employees and the creditors get done with his estate, it’s going to be worth negative one billion, even with the stockholders dropping out. And they’re only dropping out because the stockholders get paid LAST, so they have no chance of getting anything…the employees and creditors and Uncle Sam get their share first. Lay’s heirs get NOTHING except the insurance payments. [/QUOTE] The life insurance is 10 mill ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/84 "2006-07-11T14:47:52Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] I wasn’t talking about Ken Lay, I was talking about Cliff Baxter\ [/QUOTE] Oh, you meant him! _Everybody_ knows he isn’t really dead; he made the ultimate sacrifice and teleported himself to become a filament in the core of the electric sun. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/85 "2006-07-11T14:52:28Z")
[QUOTE=Age Quod Agis] Why not consider the fact that Bush might not be responsible for everything bad in the world? [/QUOTE] I never said he was, although he seem to be trying. I pointed out him and his associates as possible supsects because they are, given Lay’s and his close association. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/86 "2006-07-11T15:13:22Z")
OK, so let’s stipulate that Lay’s life insurance was 10 million. How many people murder their family members for 10 million dollars? There are lots of rich people in the world, world-wide millions of people are worth over a million dollars. Yeah, yeah, anyone might be tempted to commit murder for a million dollars. Except in reality that almost never happens. How many millionaires are murdered for their inheritance/life insurance? Not many. Example, my wife’s parents supposedly have quite a bit of money. If I killed them we might stand to inherit a million dollars. Note that I really have no idea how much money they really have, I don’t look at their tax returns, this is just guesswork, and lots of people seem to be rich but are really bankrupt (like Ken Lay), they could be wiped out tomorrow by a stock market crash, maybe they live way beyond their means, etc. And I have no idea what’s in their will, they’re just as likely to leave their alleged money to the Smithsonian as to leave it to their kids. But anyway, if I bump off my wife’s parents there’s a pretty good chance we’d be looking at a million dollars. Kill my wife, and the money’s all mine. And this is true for lots of people. It doesn’t take much to have a million dollar estate, if the parents or grandparents bought the right house at the right time in the right place and paid off the mortgage long ago, Mom and Dad’s house could have appreciated wildly. Bump them off, sell the house, and you’ve got a huge chunk of change. But how often does this really happen? You’d think we’d see stories in the paper every other day about heiresses that bludgeon grandpa in the observatory with the candlestick. But we don’t. Sure, it happens…but not so often that every time a rich guy drops dead we immediately suspect the heirs. People might SAY they’d kill for a million dollars…but it turns out that they mostly don’t, especially if they have to kill family members. Five years ago Ken Lay was worth hundreds of millions. Today he’s worth a fraction of that, potentially nothing. Ten million in insurance isn’t that much when you’ve been hyper-rich, especially considering that these murderous heirs likely have their own money. It’s not like they’re living on the street, prostituting themselves for crack, and the only thing between them and their next score is Grampa Lay. People with estates and insurance worth much more than 10 million die every day, or at least every other day. Why don’t you suspect murder then? Because most people wouldn’t kill their husbands, wives, or parents, even if that would get them a million dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/87 "2006-07-11T15:21:20Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Five years ago Ken Lay was worth hundreds of millions. Today he’s worth a fraction of that, potentially nothing. [/QUOTE] I don’t believe this. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/88 "2006-07-11T15:26:59Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] OK, so let’s stipulate that Lay’s life insurance was 10 million. How many people murder their family members for 10 million dollars? There are lots of rich people in the world, world-wide millions of people are worth over a million dollars. Yeah, yeah, anyone might be tempted to commit murder for a million dollars. Except in reality that almost never happens. How many millionaires are murdered for their inheritance/life insurance? Not many. [/QUOTE] Ok, how many Ken Lay’s are there? Why the hell are you trying to compare this case to any other? It doesn’t make sense. Ken Lay was going to prison. Ken Lay had a lot of powerful friends who probably didn’t want him to go to prison. Nobody other than a handful of people have seen Ken Lay’s supposed body, and all of these people are either close to him or could have been paid off. All that’s left to figure out is “could he have pulled it off?” Yes he could have pulled it off because I’m sure he has all the right connections. What the hell else is there to it other than that? Can I get an AMEN from somebody? Anybody? 😕 How things went down is another story. You seem to be focussing too much of your attention on one thing Lemur, and I think you need to let your brain cool off for a moment. Did his family kill him? NOT LIKELY. Was he murdered? That’s a little more possible. Did he and some others fake his death? A little more likely than the last possibility. Did he die of a heart attack? Maybe, but it seems too damn convenient to me. And then they’re going to cremate his body? :smack: How the hell does this seem so farfetched? People fake their own death all time, especially if they have a really good reason and all the means necessary to pull it off. Why wouldn’t he do it? Because he’d feel guilty he cheated the penal system? You bore me Lemur. :o ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/89 "2006-07-11T15:27:15Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] I don’t believe this. [/QUOTE] What don’t you believe? That he was worth hundreds of millions? He had huge chunks of Enron stock, Enron was valued very highly. Now that Enron stock is wastepaper, worth nothing. He had other assets, but those assets are subject to judgement. Given that he defrauded people out of billions of dollars, his estate is worth negative billions. His alleged secret slush funds can’t be used because forensic accountants are going over everything, and if those funds exist how do his heirs/co-conspirators get their hands on the money now that he’s dead? That kind of thing doesn’t go through probate. The only thing of value that Lay had was life insurance, and that’s because it isn’t subject to seizure. You can keep repeating that Lay was loaded with money, that doesn’t make it so. There are thousands of used car dealers all across America who are richer than Lay was when he died. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/90 "2006-07-11T15:31:04Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] You can keep repeating that Lay was loaded with money, that doesn’t make it so. [/QUOTE] You keep repeating he was broke, that doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/91 "2006-07-11T15:37:48Z")
Except I don’t just SAY he was broke, I explain WHY he was broke. His Enron stock is worthless. His legal fees ate up millions. His estate isn’t broke yet, but it faces judgments in the billions. However much his estate was worth he didn’t have billions, he had tens of millions. His estate was worthless/near worthless, read the Times article I provided, or provide some evidence that he was still worth hundreds of millions after Enron collapsed and he was convicted of aggravated mopery and dopery. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/92 "2006-07-11T15:42:42Z")
Does anyone have any evidence that Lay was murdered besides a vague suspicion that people wanted him dead? Because establishing motive isn’t nearly enough, not before you’ve even established foul play. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/93 "2006-07-11T15:42:53Z")
I love this stuff, good read. What puzzles me is; If Bush and Co. have the power to fake a death and set Ken up in a new country etc… Why didn’t Bush use that power to just have him found “not guilty”? I mean this is the same president, who by many CT’s, lead the orchestration of 9/11, and kept all the people involved quiet. Why didn’t they just lay some pressure on a few jurors, or even the Judge. he could have set aside the ruling on any number of points im sure. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/94 "2006-07-11T15:51:03Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] People with estates and insurance worth much more than 10 million die every day, or at least every other day. Why don’t you suspect murder then? Because most people wouldn’t kill their husbands, wives, or parents, even if that would get them a million dollars. [/QUOTE] I think more people would murder to _stay_ rich than to _get_ rich. If you were a wealthy person and you were facing all of that wealth disappearing, I think you’d be pretty tempted to do something to prevent it. I have no opinion on Lay’s death, mind you, so this isn’t about him. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/95 "2006-07-11T15:51:43Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] I wasn’t talking about Ken Lay, I was talking about Cliff Baxter the Vice Chairman who commited suicide just before he was set to testify before the house, a couple days after he hired body guards. Way to go, Doper. [/QUOTE] You’ll forgive my confusion then, since everybody else was talking about Ken Lay. If you’re going to dodge your lame-ass argument by switching subjects, at least have the courtesy to let us know what the hell you’re talking about. And that said, I have no problem believing that a man could be concerned enough with his safety to hire bodyguards and then days later be dispondent enough to take his own life. I’d need to see other evidence to rule that it was murder. The fact that an event may possibly be seen to be convenient to some party doesn’t mean that it was orchestrated by such power. I inherited a fair amount of money when my father died. It didn’t mean that I murdered him. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/96 "2006-07-11T16:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > What puzzles me is; If Bush and Co. have the power to fake a death and set Ken up in a new country etc… Why didn’t Bush use that power to just have him found “not guilty”? I mean this is the same president, who by many CT’s, lead the orchestration of 9/11, and kept all the people involved quiet. Because everybody who lost a job and some money in this whole event was watching closely, and Ken Lay getting off would have sparked riots worse than Rodney King’s. Find him guilty, then usher him out the back door later on. > [@](#): > > If you’re going to dodge your lame-ass argument by switching subjects I wasn’t dodging anything, or switching any subject. I was pointing out just another one of those weird occurences surrounding this whole thing. Something is lame-ass here, but it’s not my argument. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/97 "2006-07-11T16:24:40Z")
[QUOTE=TheFonz] Something is lame-ass here, but it’s not my argument. 😛 [/QUOTE] No, you’re right. Your premise has precedence over your argument for the “lame-ass” label. ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/98 "2006-07-11T17:10:50Z")
I’m sorry if not everybody can make these kinds of connections inside their head, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any connections. You say I need to present some kind of proof, but what the hell do you want me to show you? Everything I have is available to you as well, and just because I can’t come up with some nonexistent evidence doesn’t mean the dude didn’t fake his own death. Sure, it doesn’t mean he did… but COME ON. :smack: The guy had some very good connections, and if I were in his shoes I would have done the exact same thing. All I’m saying is this matter ought to be investigated a little more thoroughly before the body is cremated. Don’t we owe to the people who lost all those billions and all those people who lost their jobs and retirement plans? **Or should we send out the message to all big-time swindlers that it’s open season on America’s hard-earned cash?** ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/99 "2006-07-11T17:16:03Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Now, now, don’t you know it’s wildly paranoid to think that a man who hires bodyguards might fear for his life ? [/QUOTE] Do you think it’s reasonible that a man who defrauded thousands of people out of their life’s savings might have made a few enemies? ---
**Author:** ![TheFonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@TheFonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFonz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793/100 "2006-07-11T17:27:14Z")
Of couse not! Why that’s just insane! Surely you must be a conspiracist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ken-lays-death-is-bogus/363793.md?page=6)