# Kennedy assassination question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515 "2011-10-04T02:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/1 "2011-10-04T02:56:42Z")
I happened to watch a special this evening and they showed the Zapruder film. I’ve seen this film a thousand times, but one thing finally stood out to me that I never thought of before… When Kennedy gets hit in the throat, his hands go directly to the front of his neck. If this shot came from behind, wouldn’t he reach for the back of his neck first? At least with one hand at least? Seemed kind of strange to me, and gives me another reason to believe the throat shot came from the front somewhere. Is there any anecdotal evidence from people in the military or your general gun shot victim on a through and through shot? (i.e. if a shot passes completely through the body, what part does the victim grab first, the entry or exit wound?) ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/2 "2011-10-04T03:03:02Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > If this shot came from behind, wouldn’t he reach for the back of his neck first? 1.) The time it takes for a bullet to go from the back of your neck to the front of your neck is so insignificant that the entry and exit wounds might as well have been created simultaneously. 2.) He wasn’t shot in the back of the neck at all. He was shot in the upper back with the bullet exiting from his throat. If two wounds were created virtually simultaneously (see above) and one was in your upper back and the other in your throat, which do you think you’d reach for? 3.) There was only one gunman. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/3 "2011-10-04T03:04:26Z")
From what I remember, the bullet nicked the spinal cord and the raised arms are a reflex.( like tapping the knee) ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/4 "2011-10-04T04:20:20Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > 1.) The time it takes for a bullet to go from the back of your neck to the front of your neck is so insignificant that the entry and exit wounds might as well have been created simultaneously. I agree, but if he was indeed paralized (see runner pat’s post), he wouldn’t have felt the front wound. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > 2.) He wasn’t shot in the back of the neck at all. He was shot in the upper back with the bullet exiting from his throat. If two wounds were created virtually simultaneously (see above) and one was in your upper back and the other in your throat, which do you think you’d reach for? Thank you for the correction. The upper back is the location of the entrance (or exit) wound, depending on your POV. As for which wound I would reach for, hell, I don’t know. That’s why I asked. That’s also why I asked about folks that have actually had a through-and-through wound. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > 3.) There was only one gunman. You don’t know that. You simply **can’t** know that. But you can think it. Many people do. Many more believe in 2 or more based on public polls. > [@runner pat](#): > > From what I remember, the bullet nicked the spinal cord and the raised arms are a reflex.( like tapping the knee) Is the contention that Kennedy was paralized by the back/throat shot? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/5 "2011-10-04T04:24:19Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > You don’t know that. You simply **can’t** know that. But you can think it. Define “know.” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/6 "2011-10-04T04:30:12Z")
You might try reading some books. Gerald Posner’s _Case Closed_ cites a neurologist who speculates that the weird reaction Kennedy has, with his elbows shooting straight out at an almost horizontal angle, is a neurological reflex to spinal cord injury they describe as “Thorburn’s position.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/7 "2011-10-04T04:52:33Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > You don’t know that. You simply **can’t** know that. But you can think it. Many people do. Many more believe in 2 or more based on public polls. Objective truth isn’t determined by public opinion polls. If many people believe there were multiple shooters, then many people are wrong. > [@](#): > > Is the contention that Kennedy was paralized by the back/throat shot? No, I’m pretty sure it killed him. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/8 "2011-10-04T05:05:57Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I agree, but if he was indeed paralized (see runner pat’s post), he wouldn’t have felt the front wound. **runner pat** didn’t say he was paralyzed, he said the bullet nicked JFK’s spinal cord. That could have caused injuries and not paralysis. > [@](#): > > You don’t know that. You simply **can’t** know that. You can if you know what the facts are. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/9 "2011-10-04T06:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > When Kennedy gets hit in the throat, his hands go directly to the front of his neck. If this shot came from behind, wouldn’t he reach for the back of his neck first? At least with one hand at least? Why would this be a natural reaction? Even leaving aside the speed it happened (the bullet from a long rifle is moving so fast that it’s going to be micro seconds between entry and exit wounds), if you suddenly felt a pain in your chest and saw blood spouting from your chest, would you reach back behind you to feel for the entry wound, or try and cover the blood pouring out from the front? Reflexively it would be pretty unnatural to reach to the back of your neck when blood is spouting from the front. > [@](#): > > Seemed kind of strange to me, and gives me another reason to believe the throat shot came from the front somewhere. Considering the fact that he was clearly leaning forward in the car, and the actual entry and exit wound, the gunman would have had to be in the front seat firing upward to inflict that wound from the front. And a bullet to the throat would have torn a huge hole in his throat and been pretty obvious in the autopsy, since there is good forensics on entry verse exit wounds. > [@](#): > > Is there any anecdotal evidence from people in the military or your general gun shot victim on a through and through shot? (i.e. if a shot passes completely through the body, what part does the victim grab first, the entry or exit wound?) Well…anecdotally I saw a deer shot in the neck once with a bow from behind. The deer obviously didn’t have hands, but the reflex was to try and bite the point sticking out it’s chest, not throw it’s head back to explore the entry area. Obviously this is not a perfect analogy, but it’s the only one I’ve ever seen personally. I think that with humans, the natural reaction, especially the reflexive reaction, is always going to be to put hands to the front of the body when encountering such an injury, since our hands and visual sense organs are all to the front. -XT ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/10 "2011-10-04T06:11:14Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > You might try reading some books. Gerald Posner’s _Case Closed_ cites a neurologist who speculates that the weird reaction Kennedy has, with his elbows shooting straight out at an almost horizontal angle, is a neurological reflex to spinal cord injury they describe as “Thorburn’s position.” You should try reading some books too. I’ll wager that I’ve read more books that point to Oswald as the lone killer, including Posner’s. I will also wager that you haven’t read many books suggesting a conspiracy. I challenge you to just read one. Garrison’s “On the Trail of the Assassins”. Don’t tell me you saw JFK and that’s good enough. Read the book. Tell me how it’s not as convincing as anything else you’ve read. > [@Miller](#): > > Objective truth isn’t determined by public opinion polls. If many people believe there were multiple shooters, then many people are wrong. Only if there was one shooter. > [@Miller](#): > > No, I’m pretty sure it killed him. The throat shot? Could be, but I’ve never heard that. It really doesn’t matter, though does it? > [@Marley23](#): > > **runner pat** didn’t say he was paralyzed, he said the bullet nicked JFK’s spinal cord. That could have caused injuries and not paralysis. True enough. I added the paralysis, since I would think that nicking the spinal chord with the bullet would certainly do some damage. But I guess there’s no guarantee that paralysis would be an outcome. > [@Marley23](#): > > You can if you know what the facts are. If I knew what the facts are, I’d write a book and disappear for a while. If you knew what the facts are, you may do something similar. The fact is, you don’t know the facts. Neither do I. You may know what you’ve read cold, but that doesn’t make you any more of an expert than I am. Because neither one of us know the truth. For all you folks gearing up for a debate on this subject, I’m not interested in a debate. I’ve seen too many on this board and I know how they go. No one ever changes their minds on the subject, and the Oswald did it alone crowd always shout down any other competing theories. It’s boring. I also know that I’m open-minded enough to change my POV if someone showed me something that proved it one way or the other. But I never get that same impression from the Oswald alone crowd. Being locked into a position makes it impossible to debate, especially on a subject like this, where the truth is simply not available no matter what you think. My questions was just that. A question. I’m not trying to prove Posner wrong. It just made me curious. The fact that some neurologist is cited in Posner’s book as that he “speculates” as to the cause of Kennedy’s weird reaction proves my point. That neurologist doesn’t know because he didn’t examine the body and he wasn’t at the autopsy. I’ll bet there are a dozen other reasons that neurologists can give as to the reason for Kennedy’s reaction. How about he was simply reacting to being shot in the neck? No “Thorburn’s position”. Just a wounded guy reacting to the pain. If there isn’t anyone that can answer my questions, that’s fine. But this isn’t about who shot Kennedy from where. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/11 "2011-10-04T06:24:11Z")
Guys, he’s just asking questions. Like I’d like to ask about the angle of the shadows of the moon rocks supposedly taken by the Apollo “astronauts.” And the mysterious puffs of smoke right before the WTC came down. I’m not saying they _are_ explosive charges; and if you can lay out a convincing case that it _wasn’t_ government-planted explosive charges that brought down the WTC, then I’ll be willing to consider your “evidence”. C’mon, asking questions just shows that I’m an open-minded guy, right?!? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/12 "2011-10-04T07:22:12Z")
I’m pretty sure it was his brains being blown out that killed him. I mean, a bullet in the throat won’t have done him any good, but the brain thing was more decisive. And they came out the back of his head, for those keeping score. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/13 "2011-10-04T07:37:27Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > And they came out the back of his head, for those keeping score. Cite? The autopsy photos are online, you know, and that’s a pretty gaping hole at the top & front of his head. And the Zapruder film shows a jet of brain matter flying up and toward the front of the car, not the back. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/14 "2011-10-04T09:46:51Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Considering the fact that he was clearly leaning forward in the car, and the actual entry and exit wound, the gunman would have had to be in the front seat firing upward to inflict that wound from the front. [/QUOTE] You know you’re only adding fuel to the “Jackie did it so she could marry Onassis” theory, right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/15 "2011-10-04T10:34:54Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > The throat shot? Could be, but I’ve never heard that. I agree with that. I’ve never heard that first shot killed him. > [@](#): > > True enough. I added the paralysis, since I would think that nicking the spinal chord with the bullet would certainly do some damage. But I guess there’s no guarantee that paralysis would be an outcome. It would have done damage, sure. But that doesn’t mean paralysis, especially instant paralysis that would have prevented him from feeling the shot. For that matter even if he’d been paralyzed he would have had sensation above the affected area. > [@](#): > > If I knew what the facts are, I’d write a book and disappear for a while. If you knew what the facts are, you may do something similar. Every fact I know is public and is known by lots of other people, so there wouldn’t be much point. Nevermind the pointlessness of trying to convince people on issues like this. > [@](#): > > Because neither one of us know the truth. I recognize that that’s what you think, but that doesn’t make it true. The question you’re asking is interesting and I can’t answer it, but I’m not sure it would mean anything either. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/16 "2011-10-04T10:48:24Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Cite? The autopsy photos are online, you know, and that’s a pretty gaping hole at the top & front of his head. And the Zapruder film shows a jet of brain matter flying up and toward the front of the car, not the back. To me it looks like he’s bending forward from the throat shot and then gets pushed back from the head shot, indicating the head shot came from the front and not from the back. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/17 "2011-10-04T10:53:18Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > To me it looks like he’s bending forward from the throat shot and then gets pushed back from the head shot, indicating the head shot came from the front and not from the back. While this sounds like common sense, the problem is that physics doesn’t allow it (and I don’t know that anatomy does either). You can’t draw conclusions about where the shots came from based on the movement of his head. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/18 "2011-10-04T10:54:39Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > To me it looks like he’s bending forward from the throat shot and then gets pushed back from the head shot, indicating the head shot came from the front and not from the back. Have you read any constructive book on the matter? Like Case Closed (mentioned above) or Reclaiming History? All these issues are dealt with in depth. Read them and don’t expect us to do your work. Marley and Miller are correct. One shooter. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/19 "2011-10-04T11:05:35Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > To me it looks like he’s bending forward from the throat shot and then gets pushed back from the head shot, indicating the head shot came from the front and not from the back. Read this.[http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/headwnd.htm](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/headwnd.htm) > [@](#): > > Q. What is your opinion, based upon the expertise that you have acquired in these 18 years at the Edgewood Arsenal in wound ballistics, with respect to the question of the direction from which the bullet came that struck the President in the head? > > A. Well, the President in 313, the head appears to have moved slightly forward from the previous frame. Now, I say appears, because unless you measured this precisely you don’t know. But it appears to have moved slightly. > > And this would not be inconsistent with the momentum of the bullet being transferred to the head. Whereas I said a bullet cannot knock a person down or move a body in any violent way, it could conceivably move the head a little bit. We fired at human skulls filled with gelatin sitting on the table, and they would roll off the table. And this apparent side movement of the head is in the correct direction if the bullet came from the book depository. > > Q. That is, from the rear of the President? > > A. From the rear of the President. > > Q. Now, then, what can you tell us with respect to the subsequent action of the President’s head and body after that initial apparent slight movement forward? > > A. There could be two reasons for it. One reason, there is a jet of blood and brain material from the head, some bone seemed to fly up in the air, but the bulk of it appears to fly forward and maybe slightly to the right. This gives an indication that that is possibly in the direction that the bullet exited from the skull. > > Q. Now, was there any movement of the President’s head and body associated with that? > > A. That material going in that direction would have a tendency as a result of this jet effect to push the head in the other direction. This was demonstrated by Louis Alvarez in California several years ago by shooting melons. When you could get a jet of honeydew melon going out the front, the melon would roll toward the gun, showing that there is some movement from this jet effect. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515/20 "2011-10-04T11:11:48Z")
I only watched the zapruder film and base my opinion on this film and the laws of newton. The fact that the neck joint can move in just about any direction would result in the shell transferring its general direction to the motion of the head upon impact. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-question/598515.md?page=2)