# Kennedy Assassination Recreation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2001, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878 "2001-10-02T01:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/21 "2001-10-03T07:36:49Z")
Simple. There was no magic to it. The ‘conspiracy’ drawings always show Connolly directly ahead and pretty much at the same level as Kennedy. In reality, Connolly was MUCH lower, and MUCH closer to the center of the car. A few years ago a company took exact measurements of the limo, and did a computer re-creation, going backwards. In other words, they put Connolly and Kennedy in the right spots, at the right place according to the Zapruder tape, and drew a line through Connolly’s back wound and Kennedy’s neck wound, to see where it would go. It went straight through the window on the 6th floor of the Texas Book Depository. This is the ‘evidence’ that actually finally made me decide that the conspiracy theories were wrong, and that the proponents of them were being dishonest or misleading. Because photos of the limo are available that clearly show the locations of both Kennedy and Connolly, but those photos never seem to get published in the ‘conspiracy’ books. If you want to see them yourself, do a search on this forum for ‘Kennedy Assassination’. There was a thread just a little while ago where I posted links to them. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/22 "2001-10-03T14:50:50Z")
A good reference site for assassination data is [http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm) . There is tons of detail here, so you can dig down as deep as you want on any particular subject. What strikes me after reading lots about the assassination (here and other sources) is how pro-conspiracy folks have deliberately distorted the facts to attempt to question what really happened, but can’t even come up with a reasonable alternative explanation. Reminds me of the Moon hoax believers. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/23 "2001-10-03T21:54:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Simple. There was no magic to it. The ‘conspiracy’ drawings always show Connolly directly ahead and pretty much at the same level as Kennedy. In reality, Connolly was MUCH lower, and MUCH closer to the center of the car. > \*\* Adding on to that, the conspiracy drawings often show the two victims as sitting apssively with their arms rest at their sides. These were **POLITICIANS** people, they had their hands up waving to the crowd! Is that so hard to grasp? I guess it was easier to ignore that detail to laugh at 90degree turns in the bullets path. F\*\*\*in’ Oliver Stone… The bullet was pretty deformed too, just not along its long axis. Pictures of its short axis show some wear and tear. My opinions changed drasticly about any conspiracy after I realised how much conspiracy writers were hiding themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/24 "2001-10-04T01:16:03Z")
re: Oswalds Marine rifle scores. There are three marksmanship levels in the Marines; Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Expert. On his first qualification, The 212 score Oswald shot was two points above the minimum for “Sharpshooter”, the middle level. (which from my own military experience is basically average). At his next and last qualification, he shot a 191, which is one point above the minimum score for “Marksman”, the lowest qualification level. Scoring: Marksman - 190-209 Sharpshooter - 210-219 Expert - anything over 219 Perhaps Posner was confused or mislead by “second highest in the Marine Corps”, but while in the Marines, Oswald was hardly considered an “expert” marksman. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/25 "2001-10-04T02:57:28Z")
Okay, but even then, what I said was: > [@](#): > > Oswald was a pretty good shot. He might have been average for a Marine, but surely that still puts him in the top couple percentile. Couple that with the fact that Kennedy’s motorcade was by no means a difficult shot and there should be no question that he was capable of pulling it off. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/26 "2001-10-04T02:59:17Z")
BTW, **Klaatu** , do you happen to know what conditions that Marine rifle proficiency test is conducted under? Specifically, what are the range, weapon, and target size? ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/27 "2001-10-04T03:20:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Okay, but even then, what I said was: > > > [@](#): > > > > Oswald was a pretty good shot. > > He might have been average for a Marine, but surely that still puts him in the top couple percentile. Couple that with the fact that Kennedy’s motorcade was by no means a difficult shot and there should be no question that he was capable of pulling it off. \*\* Re: “top couple percentile” Where do you get your “facts”? In drawing your conclusion, are you suggesting that Marines are more skilled than their Army counterparts? Are you including _former_ Marines/Army soldiers, many of whom were better shots than Oswald? Are you including civilians such as myself who like to hunt as well as practice at shooting ranges? Looking at his scores, Oswald was a good if unexceptional shot. To maintain proficiency requires frequent practice. IIRC, you quoted Oswald’s wife as saying he practiced “on multiple occasions.” How many is “multiple”? Over what period of time? From what distance? Was the target moving? At what speed and vector? Was he rushed to make his shots? Re: “…no question that he was capable of pulling it off.” That’s a rather wild conclusion. No question at all? If you are going to represent the Oswald-as-sole-shooter case, please be more precise in your analysis and delivery. ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/28 "2001-10-04T03:22:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Okay, but even then, what I said was: > > > [@](#): > > > > Oswald was a pretty good shot. > > He might have been average for a Marine, but surely that still puts him in the top couple percentile. Couple that with the fact that Kennedy’s motorcade was by no means a difficult shot and there should be no question that he was capable of pulling it off. \*\* Sheesh. Missed one. Re: “…the FACT that Kennedy’s motorcade was by no means a difficult shot…” (Embarrassed sigh) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/29 "2001-10-04T03:39:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tsunamisurfer \* > If you are going to represent the Oswald-as-sole-shooter case, please be more precise in your analysis and delivery. So, as long as you’re demanding perfect data before allowing any conclusions to be drawn, can you provide any “analysis and delivery” that demonstrates the assassination was beyond Oswald’s capability as a marksman? Or that shows the motorcade _was_ a difficult shot? And please, be “precise.” I think I’ve already made a pretty good case that the shot was relatively easy, that Oswald was a pretty decent shot, and that he was physically capable of firing all three shots in the relevant time frame. **tsumanisurfer** ’s post is, of course, the typical tactic of JFK conspiracy buffs: nitpick the unknowable details, show that the individual bits of evidence–standing alone–fail to conclusively demonstrate Oswald’s guilt, and insinuate that this somehow proves LBJ/Castro/the Mafia/Woody Harrelson’s dad/space aliens killed JFK. ---
**Author:** ![dunne\_u.wurrie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@dunne\_u.wurrie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dunne_u.wurrie)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/30 "2001-10-04T03:59:10Z")
Thanks for the thread, Curt. Very informative. If the information, as presented, is accurate, it certainly seems possible that Oswald could have pulled the whole thing off without help. What a dickhead. ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2001, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/31 "2001-10-04T14:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by tsunamisurfer \* > > If you are going to represent the Oswald-as-sole-shooter case, please be more precise in your analysis and delivery. > > So, as long as you’re demanding perfect data before allowing any conclusions to be drawn, can you provide any “analysis and delivery” that demonstrates the assassination was beyond Oswald’s capability as a marksman? Or that shows the motorcade _was_ a difficult shot? And please, be “precise.” I think I’ve already made a pretty good case that the shot was relatively easy, that Oswald was a pretty decent shot, and that he was physically capable of firing all three shots in the relevant time frame. > > **tsumanisurfer** ’s post is, of course, the typical tactic of JFK conspiracy buffs: nitpick the unknowable details, show that the individual bits of evidence–standing alone–fail to conclusively demonstrate Oswald’s guilt, and insinuate that this somehow proves LBJ/Castro/the Mafia/Woody Harrelson’s dad/space aliens killed JFK. \*\* Your hysterical shrillness, sloppy generalizations and predeliction toward wild exaggeration make me wonder re: your claims of being an attorney. Sorry, bud, but you haven’t made a good case whatsoever. Who asked for “perfect data”? I’m simply asking you to sunstantiate your claims with logic and evidence–something woefully absent from your posts. What IS apparent is that you have been steadily backpedaling from your earlier posts. Moreover, I do not buy the vast conspiracy B.S. which you strangely conclude I do. (Do you get away with this stuff at work?) You’ve made the claims, bud. Prove them. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/32 "2001-10-05T01:13:47Z")
Still not going to try and disprove anything, eh **ts**? Somehow I’m not surprised. Ya know, in my line of business, when one party presents some evidence supporting a proposition of fact, and the other side presents no evidence to the contrary, the result is that those who sit in judgment are required to accept the proposition as true. Now try to follow along as I go through my propositions and my evidence item by item. **Proposition** : Oswald was a pretty good shot. **The evidence** : (1) He qualified as a sharpshooter in the Marines. (2) He had practiced repeatedly with the rifle he used to shoot Kennedy. (3) He’d already used that same rifle in an assassination attempt on Gen. Walker a few months earlier (which shot, incidentally, missed killing Walker only because it was deflected ever so slightly by knicking a windowframe). **Proposition** : The motorcade wasn’t that difficult a shot. **The evidence** : (1) Kennedy was only a couple hundred feet away when Oswald fired the fatal shot with his rifle and 4x scope. (2) The motorcade was traveling slow in the first place (it had be to negotiate the 120-degree turn from Houston to Elm). (3) Kennedy’s driver actually slowed down further after the second shot (in fact, he damn near stopped). **Proposition** : Oswald practiced repeatedly with the rifle he used to shoot Kennedy. **Evidence** : (1) Marina Oswald testified to the Warren Commission that Lee would practice with the bolt action for hours on end. (2) She also testified that she personally saw Oswald take the rifle out for target practice several times, each time for several hours. And in rebuttal of this evidence, you, **tsunamisurfer** , responded with nothing more than the following two factual propositions:[ul][li]Looking at his scores, Oswald was a good if unexceptional shot. _(Which is, of course, almost exactly what I myself claimed– **minty** _)[_]To maintain proficiency requires frequent practice. (Which is, of course, exactly what my evidence shows Oswald was doing in the weeks and months prior to the assassination– **minty**.)[/li][/ul]And aside from providing evidence for my claims, what else did you come up with to prove my claims were wrong? Nothing but a series of questions that are largely unknowable and most certainly non-substantive as evidence of anything at all:[ul][li]Where do you get your “facts”?[_]In drawing your conclusion, are you suggesting that Marines are more skilled than their Army counterparts?[_]Are you including former Marines/Army soldiers, many of whom were better shots than Oswald?[_]Are you including civilians such as myself who like to hunt as well as practice at shooting ranges?[_]Looking at his scores, Oswald was a good if unexceptional shot (which is, of course, almost exactly what I already claimed– **minty** ).[_]To maintain proficiency requires frequent practice (_which is, of course, exactly what my evidence shows Oswald was doing in the weeks and months prior to the assassination– **minty** _)[_]IIRC, you quoted Oswald’s wife as saying he practiced “on multiple occasions.” How many is “multiple”? [_]Over what period of time?[_]From what distance? [_]Was the target moving? [_]At what speed and vector? [_]Was he rushed to make his shots?Re: “…no question that he was capable of pulling it off.” That’s a rather wild conclusion. No question at all?[/ul][/li] “But your honor, I don’t _have_ to present evidence. **minty** loses just because I asked questions!” Come talk to me when you have some real evidence to offer, **tsunamisurfer**. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/33 "2001-10-05T01:19:40Z")
Oops. The redundant “good if unexceptional shot” and “frequent practice” bullet points in the second string should have been deleted when I moved them to a separate category. Apologies for any confusion that may have caused. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/34 "2001-10-05T01:22:38Z")
And incidentally, the answer to nearly every one of **tsunamisurfer** ’s question is this: _In light of the mountain of persuasive evidence indicating Oswald did kill JFK, and in light of the utter lack of persuasive evidence that any other person was involved, it doesn’t matter_. ---
**Author:** ![dunne\_u.wurrie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@dunne\_u.wurrie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dunne_u.wurrie)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/35 "2001-10-05T08:05:22Z")
Sorry, Tsunami, he is a lawyer, and he blew you up. You can take some comfort in the knowledge that nearly all lawyers are too arrogant to do anything else for a living. Sorry, Minty, personal bias borne of my experience working in a law school. Good argument, though. “You’re dead. You’re all dead.” – Frank Sinatra ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/36 "2001-10-05T11:27:26Z")
Thank you, Mr. wurrie. And I used to be an English teacher, although I wouldn’t really call that a “living.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/37 "2003-10-01T19:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > **Oswald was never granted Soviet citizenship, although he was given some sort of “legal resident” status. He also never managed to officially revoke his U.S. citizenship. On the day he tried to do it, the U.S. embassy in Moscow told him to come back later to complete the renunciation (the official was thinking that he shouldn’t make that decision too rashly).** IIRC, this is standard practice. If you march in to an embassy demanding to revoke your citizenship, they’ll go to considerable lengths to stall you in the hopes you’ll think better of it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/38 "2003-10-03T21:03:24Z")
minty green "Ya know, in my line of business, when one party presents some evidence supporting a proposition of fact, and the other side presents no evidence to the contrary, the result is that those who sit in judgment are required to accept the proposition as true. " Care to rephrase? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/39 "2003-10-03T21:31:00Z")
**The Ryan** , you’re complaining about a two year old post. I don’t know why this thing was resurrected – I had serious deja vu as I was reading it. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878/40 "2003-10-03T22:37:50Z")
No, I would not care to rephrase, Ryan. It was correct then, and it is correct now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kennedy-assassination-recreation/84878.md?page=3)