# Kentucky teen and Confederate flag prom dress **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231 "2004-12-22T22:22:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/81 "2004-12-23T20:09:55Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > Do you realize that no matter how badly slaves may have been treated, it was not “in the same league” as what happened in Nazi Germany. The Holocaust was more efficient at genocide, but American slavery of Africans was more efficient at killing their culture. Jews were also enslaved and their property taken, so Nazi’s can’t be considered any better because they weren’t doing it for economic gain; they were, as well as for other reasons. Nazis also stripped many of their heritage. Madeline Albright for one. I do see one benefit of slavery. My life is richer because my culture has been enriched by those who were brought here as slaves and their decendents. I’d gladly give it up were I able to prevent slavery from happening in the first place, though the loss is beyond measure. Such cold calculations about the benefits from and the exact shadings of evil leave me sick to my stomach. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/82 "2004-12-23T20:17:44Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Acutally, I don’t realize that. I’d say that two of the 5 or 10 greatest evils ever committed by mankind are the holocaust and the overall treatment of blacks in slavery in the Americas, counting the kidnapping, transportation, beatings, separations of families, etc. The goal may have been less monstrous, but the total amount of suffering inflicted was probably greater. Oh, really? Worse than the treatment of slaves in virtually every other part of the world at one time or another? Worse than Stalin’s pograms? Worse than Saddam’s torture and murder spree? Worse than the Israelites slaughtering and reslaughtering of the neighboring indigenous people along with their children and animals? \*\*MaxTheVool \*\* and **holmes** , your stereotyping of slave owners seems to be based on some kind of comic book version of history. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/83 "2004-12-23T20:26:15Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > But that’s \*not \* what people are claiming. What \*is \* being claimed is that the Confederate flag represents to them their heritage, warts and all. So your “joke” is that it would be funny to piss on someone’s heritage. > > Can you see how some people might take offense to that? So it DOEs involve slavery along with the rest. If some people want to honor all the mint julep drinking and riding about on white horses while others want to “honor” the slavery by pissing on it, still seems fair to me. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/84 "2004-12-23T20:29:23Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > That quick death in the oven was after months of starvation…“walking bags of bones” would have been a good description. > > Knowing that, the choice becomes much tougher. Yep, that’s why I quoted it, but there is still an ending…but that’s not the real question. **bnorton** seems to be saying and he’ll have to clarify, that Southern Slave owners while bad; weren’t as bad as Nazis. I’m assuming because the Nazi’s killed 11 million people, while Slave trade only outright killed 2 million of the 10 million they shipped…and allowed the remainer to live their lives out as slaves; as opposed to working, starving, and then killing them. I fail to see in the great scope of human evils, one of the these events is somehow not as bad as the other. They seem quite similar to me and the only real difference is the ultimate destruction of the body verus the destruction of the self. YMMV…of course. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/85 "2004-12-23T20:30:20Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > Oh, really? Worse than the treatment of slaves in virtually every other part of the world at one time or another? Worse than much of that slavery, yes, as it varied greatly in terms of the treatments that slaves received. And certainly worse as far as the extent to which morality and ethics had advanced, and the practice ought to have been recognized for the evil that it was. > [@](#): > > Worse than Stalin’s pograms? They’re also on the list. But an insane guy killing people he (paranoidly) views as a threat does not strike me as being as evil as an entire economy built upon the race-based subjugation of fellow humans. Body count isn’t everything. > [@](#): > > Worse than Saddam’s torture and murder spree? MUCH worse. > [@](#): > > Worse than the Israelites slaughtering and reslaughtering of the neighboring indigenous people along with their children and animals? The ISRAELITES? Ya know, I just hadn’t adequately considered the exploits of the frickin’ Israelites. > [@](#): > > \*\*MaxTheVool \*\* and **holmes** , your stereotyping of slave owners seems to be based on some kind of comic book version of history. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/86 "2004-12-23T20:31:19Z")
Why don’t we get into a ridiculous pissing match over which was more evil, the Holocaust or American slavery? Too late, we already did! Let’s get our check lists out– Millions killed in concentration camps? CHECK! Hundreds of thousands killed in the ocean crossing? CHECK! Wiping out of culture? CHECK and DOUBLE CHECK! Snazzy uniforms with leather trim? The HOLOCAUST WINS!!! You know why the holocaust wins, besides better uniforms? Much better marketing and White Europeans were killed by the millions. Everybody knows it’s much more important when white people get killed. A few generations of death, degridation and dehumanization? Pish-Posh. They were black and there were no cameras at the time so it’s no where near as sexy. Plus, the slave owners were nice while everybody knows the Nazis were all sadistic bastards. Not a nice one in the bunch. I think I won the pissing match! Now what do I do with this bucket of piss? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/87 "2004-12-23T20:35:29Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > \*\*MaxTheVool \*\* and **holmes** , your stereotyping of slave owners seems to be based on some kind of comic book version of history. Fine. You tell me what life was as a slave. You have access to scores of documentation, of historical records; right at your fingertips. Here’s your chance have at it. Where I am mistaken. Slave owners didn’t have sex with their ‘property’? Slaves weren’t whipped? Slaves didn’t watch as their children were sold and their families broken up? Being a slave wasn’t a life of humilation and degradation? You show me why it wasn’t so bad. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/88 "2004-12-23T20:36:19Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I think I won the pissing match! Now what do I do with this bucket of piss? Warm it up. Then the next time someone says something isn’t worth a bucket of warm piss you can trade. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/89 "2004-12-23T20:39:44Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I think I won the pissing match! Now what do I do with this bucket of piss? You could stick a religious icon into it, place it an MOMA and make a quick buck. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/90 "2004-12-23T21:07:28Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > Boy is that over the top. For starters let me suggest to you that there is, in fact, a difference between seeing one race as inferior to yours on the one hand and trying to completely obliterate the entire race on the other. “Seeing one’s race as inferior to yours” is more than just having a snobbish attitude. It means giving yourself permission to treat another person like livestock. Now I don’t know about you, but if I were treated like an animal, stripped of dignity and respect, called ugly and kept illiterate, and forced to work my ass off for the benefit of my oppressor, who at any minute could brutalize me and my loved ones with nary a reprecussion, I would _want_ to die. It doesn’t matter that my opressor didn’t physically kill me. Forcing someone into slavery is akin to killing a vital part of who they are. Now get this: the horror of slavery has nothing to do with the Holocaust. Both are atrocities. Both serve as examples of what racism and ethnic intolerance can lead people to do. Symbols of those atrocities are offensive. Period. Get over the comparisons. It’s juvenile. Some things should stand on their own merit. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/91 "2004-12-23T21:21:19Z")
I hate to be defnding this, because it almost certainly will be mis-construed, but there is evidence that slaves lived longer and were better housed and fed than many of the extremely poor (mostly ethnic…i.e. Irish, Italian, etc.) in the North. Of course this wasn’t because the slaveholders were kind, but realized they had a “capital” investment. Having said that, of course slavery, is an evil institution because slaves are not people but are property and it is far better to be free and live in poverty than to be a slave. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/92 "2004-12-23T21:45:04Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] I hate to be defnding this, because it almost certainly will be mis-construed, but there is evidence that slaves lived longer and were better housed and fed than many of the extremely poor (mostly ethnic…i.e. Irish, Italian, etc.) in the North. Of course this wasn’t because the slaveholders were kind, but realized they had a “capital” investment.[/quote[ I don’t think anyone is arguing that slaves went hungry or died of ill health more than poor whites. There is more to suffering than not having enough bread to eat. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/93 "2004-12-23T21:56:31Z")
_Castorina_, recently decided by the Sixth Circuit, seems on-point. It deals with a Kentucky school, so the requirements and limitations of state law would probably be viewed the same way by the same Court: [http://1stam.umn.edu/archive/fedctapp/Castorina.pdf](http://1stam.umn.edu/archive/fedctapp/Castorina.pdf) WARNING: Not only is this a pdf, it is an eyestraining pdf in which the arrangement of pages is quite creative. Essentially, Kentucky schools are not going to be allowed to ban clothing with confederate flag symbolism unless they can point to a history of disruption or other negative consequences of allowing their use. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/94 "2004-12-23T22:44:51Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So it DOEs involve slavery along with the rest. If some people want to honor all the mint julep drinking and riding about on white horses while others want to “honor” the slavery by pissing on it, still seems fair to me. Name me one culture - just one - that is without warts. I suppose we should all be ashamed of our ancestors whoever they may have been. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/95 "2004-12-23T23:23:23Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Did the CSA have peacetime? Technically, yes. The Confederacy was formed in February of 1861, while the attack on Fort Sumter (considered the official beginning of the Civil War) didn’t occur until [April of that year.](http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/cwphtml/tl1861.html) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/96 "2004-12-23T23:42:04Z")
One of the problems with discussing slavery on these boards has always been that unless you subscribe to the comic book stereotype that all slave owners routinely beat their slaves, raped their women, and broke up families just for the sport of it, then you are seen as somehow defending slavery. I am not defending slavery, and, like others, I find it unfortunate that this has turned into a silly contest as to which is worse, slavery or genocide. There is no doubt of the reality of the atrocities that have been mentioned, and there is no doubt that there were slave owners that were damn rotten people, but to paint all slave owners as the same and to paint all slave experiences as the same is as dishonest as any other cultural stereotype. What I’m seeing from **holmes** , **MaxTheVool** , and others is the inability to see beyond these stereotypes. Those who lived in the Old South, including slave owners, did not somehow miraculously represent only the evil subset of all human beings. They were ordinary folks, good, bad and in between, just like in all cultures. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, indeed just about all of the founding fathers who were from the southern states owned slaves. If we are supposed to be ashamed of the entire culture of the Old South because of slavery, then, to be fair, we should be ashamed of the entire American culture as well. After all, it not only involved slavery, but the genocide, dislocation, theft of land, and general mistreatment of its indigenous people. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/97 "2004-12-24T00:05:21Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > If we are supposed to be ashamed of the entire culture of the Old South because of slavery, then, to be fair, we should be ashamed of the entire American culture as well. After all, it not only involved slavery, but the genocide, dislocation, theft of land, and general mistreatment of its indigenous people. Many people _are_ ashamed of American history. A culture which not only condoned slavery, but perpetuated the inferiority of non-white people in its school systems, religious instititutions, laws and ordinances, and scientific endeavors for most of its history. I feel no less a patriot by acknowledging that there is a lot in our culture’s history that deserves shame. A mature person should be able to point out the UNDENIABLY FUCKED UP things in their culture right alongside the beautiful good things, and not be apologetic or defensive about it. ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/98 "2004-12-24T00:09:12Z")
[QUOTE=MEBuckner] [ol] [li]It’s an ugly dress; [/li][li]The school should have let her wear her ugly dress that she spent so much time making; [/li][li]If she thinks the regalia of the Confederate States of America can be separated from the defense of slavery, she is sadly ignorant of history.[/ol][/li][/QUOTE] I agree, with the addendum that I absolutely believe that the school had the authority to stop her from wearing the dress: I just don’t think they _should_ have. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/99 "2004-12-24T00:22:10Z")
One question: will it be flag desecration when this thing ends up wadded on the floor of the cheap motel room her date rents? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231/100 "2004-12-24T00:34:30Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > What I’m seeing from **holmes** , **MaxTheVool** , and others is the inability to see beyond these stereotypes. I’ll ask again. You have the ability to show me anything you want that goes beyond the stereotype. Show me the good Slaveowner, lets see their stories. Show me the happy Slave, who prefers servitude to self-determination. Let’s not ask, _why_. Of course I can show you the "good’ rapist who used a condom and didn’t beat the shit out of his victim…I mean all rapists aren’t _monsters_ are they? I wouldn’t want to be dishonest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kentucky-teen-and-confederate-flag-prom-dress/281231.md?page=6)