# Kerning and kerning in a widening gyre.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 19, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894 "2008-12-19T13:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/1 "2008-12-19T13:01:03Z")
Announcement: I am no longer a college professor! Of course, this announcement will come as no surprise to those Dopers who never thought that anyone as blatently stupid as I clearly presented myself to be could possibly teach in any reputable university in the first place, but their appraisals notwithstanding, I’m switching jobs. For a year, anyway. I’m assuming the position of Editor of the [Blank] University Press, mostly because the current editor is going on sabbatical leave, and I have some work experience as an editor, and some masochism. It would be easier simply to teach a few courses rather than learn how editing has changed over the last few decades, but I’m taking my turn in the barrel and I hope it will be fun. The sheer tonnage of things I don’t know or don’t remember about editing would stun a team of oxen in its tracks. The gig begins January 1. I’m hoping my fellow Dopers can serve as a resource, at least in recommending a good reference for all things editorial. (We use the Chicago Manual, so that’s going to be my primary reference work, but I need something to translate editor-ese into simple English, preferably in single syllables.) I could google terms that are vaguely familiar, but I’ll give you folks a chance to show off your mastery: what the hell is “kerning”? I recognize it as a term in typesetting, but I never kerned before in my life, or if I did it was a forgettable experience. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/2 "2008-12-19T13:10:51Z")
A search on the dope will show a reference to ‘Kerning’ in a thread about worst/most boring jobs. In one case it included kerning for road signs or warnings if I recall correctly. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/3 "2008-12-19T13:56:58Z")
Kerning is the spacing between letters horizontally (as opposed to the vertical distance between lines, which is leading). If the type in a particular line looks too squished together or too spread out, you tell the layout person to check the kerning. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/4 "2008-12-19T16:36:44Z")
Yarrrghhh! Fuuuck youuuuu! You go from the job I most want but and am having trouble getting, to my #2 fantasy-out-of-reach job! Oh, I mean, congratulations, that’s awesome. Would you like to consider a manuscript on late medieval devotional practices? A good neologism for you: keming-- when kerning goes wrong. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/5 "2008-12-19T16:59:37Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > Yarrrghhh! Fuuuck youuuuu! You go from the job I most want but and am having trouble getting, to my #2 fantasy-out-of-reach job! Well, thanks. That’s very nice of you to say. I appreciate the kind wishes. If it’s any consolation, I’m a gigantic ball of anxiety, mostly about the business part of the job, which basically drove me into academe in the first place–dealing with the printing, and the ordering back issues, and the mailing lists, etc. I have people whose jobs involve most of these issues but I’m supposed to be overseeing them and troubleshooting problems I’m clueless about. The curent editor is always arguing heatedly with these people but for now my only contribution would be “Uhhh, that sounds okay to me.” But the editing I’m okay with, except that I really could use a volume of “Editing for Idiots” just in case my idiocy proves itself to be ever-present. I also have a small budget for hiring outside consultants if I feel I need someone’s expertise so I may be offering some jobs for hire in specific areas I’m totally incompetent to do myself. I know there are some Dopers out there (some in this thread) with editing expertise who are looking for work so I’ll keep you posted. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/6 "2008-12-19T17:17:47Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > Oh, I mean, congratulations, that’s awesome. (I _did_ really mean this part, too. That IS awesome, and congratulations, again. Throw on a smiley face after the first part) How much of the “desktop publishing” side of it do you have to worry about? Like, the InDesign and layout and such, or will you be mostly responsible for the text per se side of things? I always thought that the hands-on part would especially be a hoot. ---
**Author:** ![Elysium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@Elysium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysium)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/7 "2008-12-19T17:22:01Z")
Kern is a fun word. My husband and ex-roommate are both designers, and we all got a kick out of it when she picked up a clever hoodie at a conference. The letters KERN were on the front with the zipper passing between the E and the R. Typsetting jokes are great. Good for you on the job! I am a production editor for several journals, so if you need any advice on the production side of things I might be able to help. I work on some bigger books and some smaller ones, but all under a science umbrella. I’m the one at the publisher whom the managing editors talk to about things going into press, I get your books made from the content you select. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/8 "2008-12-19T18:11:52Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > (I _did_ really mean this part, too. That IS awesome, and congratulations, again. Throw on a smiley face after the first part) > > How much of the “desktop publishing” side of it do you have to worry about? Like, the InDesign and layout and such, or will you be mostly responsible for the text per se side of things? I always thought that the hands-on part would especially be a hoot. I totally understood your tone, no smiley required. I’m a better reader than I am a writer, if you thought I was offended in any way. 😛 I’ve got someone to do the layout, but as I said, I’m clueless. The last time I actually edited something, we were printing by carving our own wooden blocks for type, and hand-cranking sheets of dried-out parchment. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/9 "2008-12-19T19:32:58Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > The last time I actually edited something, we were printing by carving our own wooden blocks for type, and hand-cranking sheets of dried-out parchment. Oh, yeah? Well, back in the day WE were still pestle-grinding lamp-black for our chiro-xylograph ink! And, um, hand printing the images on, like, fir planks and, like. . . sheets of dried dung. . . ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/10 "2008-12-19T20:01:48Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > Oh, yeah? Well, back in the day WE were still pestle-grinding lamp-black for our chiro-xylograph ink! And, um, hand printing the images on, like, fir planks and, like. . . sheets of dried dung. . . Were you in charge of the dung drying? ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/11 "2008-12-19T20:14:00Z")
Nah, that was over in the “production” department. I was in “sales”: I’d have to put on my eyepatch and fox-tails and crawl through the streets with my leper-clackers, begging for alms. It was, obviously, an academic press. . . I always looked forward to getting back to the office so I could flog the post-docs. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/12 "2008-12-20T01:43:51Z")
> [@Elysium](#): > > Kern is a fun word. .. On the other hand nobody can reliably say what ‘perne’ means. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/13 "2008-12-20T14:49:09Z")
For seven years, I had a job kerning (and tracking) every font made by the world’s largest font manufacturer (at that time, about 6,000). I had to decide how every single character fit against ever single other character. Including punctuation. Yeah, full-time kerning for the seven longest years of my life. Take it from me, DO NOT LEARN ABOUT KERNING. If it’s part of your job description, run for your life. You will never be able to read again, without the kerning driving you crazy. You will never be able to drive into a turning lane without screaming at the word: “ONL Y”. Please, do yourself a favor and get a different job. Or stick screwdrivers into your eyeballs. It’s not worth your sanity. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/14 "2008-12-20T14:52:36Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Kerning is the spacing between letters horizontally (as opposed to the vertical distance between lines, which is leading). If the type in a particular line looks too squished together or too spread out, you tell the layout person to check the kerning. If the whole line (or more) is spaced wrong, that’s a tracking problem, not kerning. Kerning is only concerned with the space between two (or occasionally three) adjacent characters, not the overall spacing. That’s tracking. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/15 "2008-12-20T15:04:47Z")
That’s the cool thing about being the boss – you tell them to check the kerning, they go away and come back with it fixed, whatever “it” was. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/16 "2008-12-20T16:10:17Z")
Congrats **pseudotriton ruber ruber** , I was afraid this was another thread about a loss of job from the mouse over. Good to see some great news in this Great Recession. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/17 "2008-12-20T19:46:58Z")
The complete sum of my knowledge of kerning (and tracking) comes from reading the first sixteen posts in this thread, and I think I can safely say I know more than I ever wanted to. 😉 Congrats on the new position, and good luck in the New Year! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerning-and-kerning-in-a-widening-gyre/477894/18 "2008-12-21T02:41:41Z")
Just think, now instead of running into incompetent/clueless/insane writing in papers/tests from students who are supposed to be at the college level, you may be running into incompetent/clueless/insane writing by sometimes-already-published-authors assumed to be actual experts in their fields! (OK, so if you’re working as the EiChief you will likely not have to worry about kerning (print shop’s problem; set to “Auto” and use decent, normal fonts) and depending on how big the University Press is you may actually have underlings in charge of detecting and helping clean up badly-bonered prose; as with heading ANYTHING at the university, it’s gonna end up mostly about the flow of The Cash, but you know THAT already…) But congrats and best wishes for much success, **prr** , those would also seem like dream postings for me.