# Kerry Charged with heresy for communion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946 "2004-07-07T14:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/61 "2004-07-07T18:50:40Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I believe that the church thinks it is theoretically permissible, but the circumstances under which it is permissible are vanishingly rare in modern society. (That is, if there is a realistic ability to maintain a prisoner in prison for life, capital punishment is impermissible). > > Daniel [Correct](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/popestate.html) > [@](#): > > It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: **in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.** Certainly in an any western democracy, the Pope has explicitly condemned the use of the death penalty (as have the U.S. Bishops for America). Those politicians who advocate its use are acting contrary to church teaching as much as Kerry’s position on abortion is contrary. **Bricker** , as usual on these kinds of things, is spot on IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/62 "2004-07-07T19:00:09Z")
In case you didn’t make it to the end of the original argument, the chances of this action amounting to anything are remote. > [@](#): > > Charles M. Wilson, director of the St. Joseph Foundation in San Antonio, which has filed numerous complaints in church courts across the country on behalf of Catholic laity, \*\*doubts the Boston Archdiocese will respond to the case. \*\* > The weak point of a “denunciation” suit, he said, is that the bishop need not take action. Usually a bishop will first investigate the case and determine whether the charges have substance, Mr. Wilson said, but Archbishop Sean O’Malley of Boston is under no obligation to prosecute the accused. I suspect that O’Malley has quite a full plate these days. I also predict that if this **is** taken seriously by anybody…that you can expect similar charges from moderate/liberal Catholics against pro death penalty/pro Iraq war politicians…which again is another reason why this probably won’t go anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/63 "2004-07-07T19:01:00Z")
I’m going to raise a related issue, only slightly OT. Bishop Sheridan of Colorado Springs, a Catholic prelate, has publicly stated that any Catholic in his diocese who knowingly votes for a pro-choice candidate is ipso facto excommunicating himself. (On another board, members pointed out that while Kerry is pro-choice, Bush approves of abortions in certain limited circumstances in disagreement with the Catholic no-abortion-whatosever stance, so any vote for a major-party candidate for President by a Diocese of Colorado Springs Catholic is self-excommunicating!) To me, that promulgation seems to cross the line between censure of a view not permitted by a Catholic, on the one hand, and impermissible meddling in the political process, on the other. Any comments? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/64 "2004-07-07T19:02:36Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > [Correct](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/popestate.html) Beatcha by four minutes! > [@](#): > > **Bricker** , as usual on these kinds of things, is spot on IMHO. Yep–if I may indulge in a little shameless flattery, folks like **Bricker** are why I subscribed to the boards. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/65 "2004-07-07T19:05:58Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I have no problem with the Catholic Church blatantly participating in political campaigns, once it gives up its 501©(3) status as a not-for-profit, nonpolitical entity. Until then, they need to shut the hell up. > > Would that the IRS would come down like a ton of bricks on them for this blatant flouting of the regulations around tax-exempt organizations. Daniel, I know that this has been covered on the board, about a month ago when this topic first came up. There were two threads on the subject - one in GD, one in the Pit. I want to say you were participating in the Pit thread (re: Bush’s attempt to bullypulpit from churches), but I’ll try to dig them up for you when I get a moment. Long story short, 501©(3) organizations are perfectly (and legally) capable of a limited amounts of lobbying and political activity. Short of an actual endorsement, the IRS isn’t going to do squat (as they shouldn’t). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/66 "2004-07-07T19:12:47Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Long story short, 501(c)(3) organizations are perfectly (and legally) capable of a limited amounts of lobbying and political activity. Short of an actual endorsement, the IRS isn’t going to do squat (as they shouldn’t). Are the guidelines for what counts as an endorsement crystal clear? It seems to me that if the Church publicly condemns a candidate during an election cycle, either that’s unlawful meddling in the election or it should be unlawful meddling. I know nonprofits can do limited meddling (thanks to your education of me on this point), but it boggles my mind that they’d be allowed to do so much meddling. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/67 "2004-07-07T19:40:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You are confusing the veracity of a story with its importance. I’m with **Lib** on this-- he was only talking about the former atribute. That’s correct. But I do believe the story is both accurate and important. It had already been reported by [The Catholic World News](http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=47704). It seems to me that its omission by other sources is as political as its inclusion by the Washington Times. The story is important because Catholics comprise a sizable portion of the population. All that said, however, I also think it is notable that Jesus was charged with heresy. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/68 "2004-07-07T19:43:30Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Are the guidelines for what counts as an endorsement crystal clear? Nope, they’re about as vague as you’d expect from the IRS. And deliberately so - the IRS can err on the side of caution in that case. To be honest, the Church (and to be specific, in this case it would be _a_ church, as they are individually chartered) would need to do a good amount of justification. If any action were to take place, it would be the ultimate case of “can open, worms _every_where”. I’d predict no punitive damages towards the Church, but merely a slap on the wrist and the IRS telling everyone in the 501©(3) business “this is what we meant”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/69 "2004-07-07T19:47:24Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Yep–if I may indulge in a little shameless flattery, folks like **Bricker** are why I subscribed to the boards. That’s very kind of you, and I consider myself shamelessly flattered! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/70 "2004-07-07T20:07:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > A question for everyone: How common is it for a pro-choice politician to say “I believe life begins at conception…”? I guess it depends on what the meaning of “life” is. Certainly no one would argue that a feuts in not alive, so unless you also attach some aspect of “personhood” to that definition, then it seem to me it is a completely a meaningless phrase. I don’t know how common it is, but I would suggest that, generally, a pro-choice person probably wouldn’t recognize any distinction between “life” and “personhood”, that being the very reason why they are pro-life. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/71 "2004-07-07T20:16:39Z")
> [@Daniel](#): > > Yep–if I may indulge in a little shameless flattery, folks like Bricker are why I subscribed to the boards. Actually, you can read Bricker’s fabulous prose without subscribing. The reason you subscribe is so that you can chastise me and bind me to an agreement to refrain from criticizing your political philosophy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/72 "2004-07-07T20:41:02Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I’m going to raise a related issue, only slightly OT. Bishop Sheridan of Colorado Springs, a Catholic prelate, has publicly stated that any Catholic in his diocese who knowingly votes for a pro-choice candidate is ipso facto excommunicating himself. > > (On another board, members pointed out that while Kerry is pro-choice, Bush approves of abortions in certain limited circumstances in disagreement with the Catholic no-abortion-whatosever stance, so any vote for a major-party candidate for President by a Diocese of Colorado Springs Catholic is self-excommunicating!) quibble: FWIW, There is the notion of [double-effect](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm) (scross to bottom) where some abortions that occur in efforts to save a mother’s life would be considered acceptable as regards to church teachings. AFAICT, Dubya opposes abortions except in cases or rape and incest (and I assume to save a mothers life)…the traditional “hard cases”. I’ve seen mixed info on this, so I’m not clear if that is correct. If it IS correct (anyone have some good current cites?) , then yes Dubya’s stance is not fully in line with church teachings. > [@](#): > > To me, that promulgation seems to cross the line between censure of a view not permitted by a Catholic, on the one hand, and impermissible meddling in the political process, on the other. Any comments? Well I’ve commented before in other threads that I think that Sheridan’s idea is dumb…it’s similar to what Bruskewitz was doing in Lincoln, Nebraska to members of Call To Action. I’m **really** pissed at idiots like Archbishop John Myers of Newark who think it’s perfectly accpetable for politicians to support the death penalty or the war in Iraq, while condemning the pro choice positions of other politicans. And yes, I’m pro life. [http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04050401.html%20](http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04050401.html%20) He’s either a total idiot as regards to the Pope’s/Bishops teaching on the death penalty (there is NO room for disagreement on the death penalty in a western democracy…it is immoral according to statements from the Pope and U.S. Bishops) or a damn liar. (Same with the Iraq War) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/73 "2004-07-07T20:46:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Actually, you can read Bricker’s fabulous prose without subscribing. The reason you subscribe is so that you can chastise me and bind me to an agreement to refrain from criticizing your political philosophy. 😃 As relevant as it is perceptive! 🙂 Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/74 "2004-07-07T20:57:27Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > (there is NO room for disagreement on the death penalty in a western democracy…it is immoral according to statements from the Pope and U.S. Bishops) or a damn liar. (Same with the Iraq War) quibble: The Iraq War doesn’t appear to meet the standards for a just war _as far as the Pope and the bishops know_. (That is, they are well-informed on the criteria for a just war; they may not be fully aware of all the facts surrounding the Iraq situation.) At present, it’s looking very very unlikely that there will emerge additional facts that will justify the war from this perspective. But in an effort to bend over backwards in fairmess, it’s not impossible. In contrast, the death penalty as administered in this country admits no reasonable dispute – it IS immoral. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/75 "2004-07-07T21:01:41Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > If this is seen as a political move then how come people keep insisting that politics and religion (especially Christian religion) is [bold]not[/bold] interwined in the US in any way? > In any other Western nation I am familiar with, people would be flat of laughter if such a thing would be done in the middle of an election campaign because nobody would think about it to see this as having any influence on election results. > > I remember that I once made a thread asking something in the line of: > "how secular can the US be seen the fact that its current president declares to be chosen by God to become president of the USA and seen the fact that politicians embrace/support/hug ( the Judeo-Christian versions of) religion because otherwise they clearly don’t have any chance to even get a nomination as presidential candidate. > I also remember the hostile reactions I received, with references to “consitution” etc… which did not answer my OP because the reality (and this silly “law suit” is once again a proof) shows clearly that religion and politics are very much intertwined. > > I would like to see the result if Kerry now simply declares that he sends the whole Christian religion to hell and becomes no matter what non-Christian/non Jewish, or atheist. Do you think he would have any chance to get elected? > > Salaam. A \*\*\*Government \*\* \* and religion are not intertwined in the US. \*\*\*Politics \*\* \* gets intertwined with whatever issue will give some scoundrel advantage. Therein lies the key difference. The law suit (which, I will agree, is silly) has nothing to do with the Constitution, or with government, and will have (imho) very little impact on politics. Sure, the suit is cynical and calculated (again imho, don’t ask for cites) - that’s what makes it politics. Were Kerry to throw away a lifetime of received faith in order to procure election, then he would indeed have thrown away the election. Nothing we hate more over here than someone who’ll chuck principle out the window for mere power and position (he’s already got the wealth). As I noted above, Kerry’s stand is the most principled position he can take, honoring both the strictures of his faith and the traditions of his country. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/76 "2004-07-07T21:27:34Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > As relevant as it is perceptive! 🙂 > > Daniel You’re right. I shouldn’t have brought it up. Oh wait, I didn’t. You did. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/77 "2004-07-07T21:35:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > quibble: The Iraq War doesn’t appear to meet the standards for a just war _as far as the Pope and the bishops know_. (That is, they are well-informed on the criteria for a just war; they may not be fully aware of all the facts surrounding the Iraq situation.) > > At present, it’s looking very very unlikely that there will emerge additional facts that will justify the war from this perspective. But in an effort to bend over backwards in fairmess, it’s not impossible. OK…I’ll modify my statement. 😉 Those politicians…and there are plenty… who are using publically available knowledge to justify the war in Iraq, are not meeting the criteria for [a just war.](http://www.nccbuscc.org/bishops/iraq.htm) > [@](#): > > In contrast, the death penalty as administered in this country admits no reasonable dispute – it IS immoral. > > - Rick Yup. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/78 "2004-07-07T21:50:26Z")
Alright, Alright, the CC is not violating the Constitution. They are, however, _attacking_ it. They hate our freedoms. US servicemembers swear to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic and the CC has made itself our enemy by demanding that they, not the voters, should be the ones to decide how our elected officials make decisions. Kerry is being singled out because of the large number of Ameican voters who support him. The CC is not simply choosing to disassociate itself from Kerry, it is trying to _coerce_ him with this heresy and excommunication business. No other organization has–or grasps for–that kind of power. How would we like it if there was a priest in every voting booth? To Americans–patriotic Americans–the secret ballot is “sacred” in a sense, and so is the principle of government of the people by the people and for the people. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/79 "2004-07-07T21:55:18Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > The CC is not simply choosing to disassociate itself from Kerry, it is trying to _coerce_ him with this heresy and excommunication business. Again, you fail to understand what is being told to you. The Catholic Church is doing no such thing. Some guy is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946/80 "2004-07-07T21:58:07Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Alright, Alright, the CC is not violating the Constitution. They are, however, _attacking_ it. They hate our freedoms… Keep digging. Maybe that hole actually \*\*will \*\* get smaller. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-charged-with-heresy-for-communion/253946.md?page=5)