# Kerry Christmas 1968 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095 "2004-08-29T15:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/81 "2004-08-31T15:09:21Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Something that may illuminate Kerry’s case was touched on in an article I had published in the International Journal of Speech, Language and Law (formerly ‘Forensic Linguistics’) in December 2003 called ‘Massaging the Evidence: the “Over-Working” of Witness Statements in Civil Cases’. A-HA! I have caught YOU in a lie! That article was NOT written by anyone named **Roger Thornhill** but by somebody with an EVEN COOLER NAME! (signed) **drop** (no, it’s not a pseudonym, it’s my real name) **zone** 😃 (After the Aldebaran incident anybody who wants to know more about this will have to track it down themselves.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/82 "2004-08-31T19:32:02Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#): > > Perhaps not an objective answer, but I would be interested to know > grienspace’s subjective answer. Obciously, the only reason to bring it up at all is because Kerry is running for president, and gs thinks this is relevant to the decision process. I just want to know how. I’m on record as to not taking a position wrt Bush and Kerry, and hopeful of a Clinton canditacy in 2008, but the more I hear about Kerry, the more he disgusts me. You liberals think you’ve got an ally? Bullshit ! all you’ve got here is a self serving POLITICIAN whose shown his stripes by denigrating his peers when it was popular. His flip flops clearly respond to media assessments of the mood of the country. If god forbid he is elected, I sincerely fear for the future of all humanity. This man is a LIAR to serve his OWN interests. The Carter years were a result of the Nixon presidency. God forbid you Americans are going to repeat this bullshit again just because you are LEGITIMATELY pissed off at Bush. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/83 "2004-08-31T19:47:05Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > … by denigrating his peers when it was popular… Og give me strength! First off, it was not “denigrating his peers”. He can rightly claim his peers as men who would be shocked and horrified at such disgraceful behavior. Would you suggest that he remain silent, simply because the men who committed these foul deeds wore the same uniform as he? Would you? Secondly, by no stretch of the imagination was Kerry aligning himself with a popular cause. The anti-war movement was _never_ popular, even when we had proved our case beyond any doubt. As far as Kerry could have possibly known, he was sacrificing his political career to speak truth to power. If there is a better recommendation, I’d like to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/84 "2004-08-31T20:31:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Og give me strength! First off, it was not “denigrating his peers”. He can rightly claim his peers as men who would be shocked and horrified at such disgraceful behavior. Oh, C’mon **elucidator** , it is the very veterans who allegedly perpetrated the disgraceful behaviour that Kerry refered to. Oh yes sure, Nixon made them do it. Never mind that Nixon wasn’t the president at the time. > [@](#): > > Would you suggest that he remain silent, simply because the men who committed these foul deeds wore the same uniform as he? Would you? Are you fucking suggesting that young American drafteees actually performed these dastardly deeds as a matter of couse as Kerry suggested? Fuck! You telling me that the boys I grew up with could do such a thing. I grew up with some assholes thats for sure, but cutting off peoples exrtremities is way beyond the norm. If you want to believe that bullshit, go ahead but pray tell me how many people had their extremities cut off by young men (who weren’t doctors) within the continental United States in the last 40 years. > [@](#): > > Secondly, by no stretch of the imagination was Kerry aligning himself with a popular cause. The anti-war movement was _never_ popular, even when we had proved our case beyond any doubt. As far as Kerry could have possibly known, he was sacrificing his political career to speak truth to power. If there is a better recommendation, I’d like to hear it. Are you kidding me? As a young man during that time, I was fully aware that to oppose the war was cool. If you supported the war you had to get your validation from the “establishment” ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/85 "2004-08-31T21:10:44Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Are you fucking suggesting that young American drafteees actually performed these dastardly deeds as a matter of couse as Kerry suggested? Fuck! You telling me that the boys I grew up with could do such a thing. I grew up with some assholes thats for sure, but cutting off peoples exrtremities is way beyond the norm. If you want to believe that bullshit, go ahead but pray tell me how many people had their extremities cut off by young men (who weren’t doctors) within the continental United States in the last 40 years. OK, sorry, maybe I’m speaking out of turn here, but I believe a lot of people said the same thing about Pvt. Lynndie England. YMMV. > [@grienspace](#): > > Are you kidding me? As a young man during that time, I was fully aware that to oppose the war was cool. If you supported the war you had to get your validation from the “establishment” Are you kidding _me_? “Cool”? If I recall correctly, so were corduroy bell-bottoms, man-perms, and brown acid. Doesn’t necessarily mean it was popular. Just because the majority of young men and women at the time thought opposing the war was “cool” doesn’t mean that the majority of _Americans_ did. And you could argue that not even a majority of people “your age” thought it was cool, either. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/86 "2004-08-31T21:36:40Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Are you fucking suggesting that young American drafteees actually performed these dastardly deeds as a matter of couse as Kerry suggested? Fuck! You telling me that the boys I grew up with could do such a thing. I grew up with some assholes thats for sure, but cutting off peoples exrtremities is way beyond the norm. If you want to believe that bullshit, go ahead but pray tell me how many people had their extremities cut off by young men (who weren’t doctors) within the continental United States in the last 40 years. That’s exactly what is being suggested. Ever heard of mob mentality? Do you think that the people involved in My Lai grew up shooting unarmed people? War is the ultimate job stress. My initial reaction every time our base was rocketed or some of my friends were killed or wounded was rage. I would have cheerfully killed the first person that looked sideways at me. Try living the life before making assumptions out of your ass. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/87 "2004-08-31T22:16:22Z")
Glad you made it back, **Chef**. One thing about this gives me pause to wonder. As I’ve said, I knew a lot of anti-war 'Nam vets. Point of fact, didn’t know any other. So I wonder if that has given me an inaccurate slant. Clearly, these Swiftie guys represent some proportion of the 'Nam vets, but how many? From my own perspective, and the perspective of the men I knew, I find it impossible to comprehend how anyone could come away with any other view but loathing and horror. Perhaps its a matter of _when_ they were there, perhaps in '68 or '69, there was still some hope of “victory”. (I saw _The Green Berets_ a couple weeks ago, astounded to be reminded what a masterpiece of propaganda it was…) The Swifties number in the hundreds, Veterans for Kerry in the thousands, Veterans _Against_ Kerry in thousands as well. Is there any way we can get a rough approximation of the numbers? Surely some men came back with a sense of proud accomplishment, and others “shot at and missed, shit on and hit.” And how many simply don’t want to think about it, ever again, for as long as they live? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/88 "2004-08-31T22:41:21Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > … > Are you fucking suggesting that young American drafteees actually performed these dastardly deeds as a matter of couse as Kerry suggested? Fuck! You telling me that the boys I grew up with could do such a thing. I grew up with some assholes thats for sure, but cutting off peoples exrtremities is way beyond the norm. If you want to believe that bullshit, go ahead but pray tell me how many people had their extremities cut off by young men (who weren’t doctors) within the continental United States in the last 40 years. > … I think you’re being naive. Here’s Major Gordon Livingstone testifying before the Vietnam War Crimes hearings in 1971: _“In other words, the system is so large and so well organized that even an individual who finds what is happening to be morally repugnant in some way is led to question his own values. This is true of anybody in a pathological association environment. The question always raises, am I crazy or is what’s going on here crazy? When it is so large and so we organized as it is in Vietnam, it is very hard for an individual to assert himself.”_ [http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwch1.htm](http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwch1.htm) It’s well-documented that some U.S. troops committed atrocities during the Vietnam War. War does that to people, even “good wars” like WWII. (For example, here’s a [link](http://members.citynet.net/sootypaws/active/stories/skull.html) to a photo printed in _Life_ magazine during WWII. It shows a young lady admiring a souvenir Jap skull collected by her boyfriend in the Pacific.) The real tragedy in Vietnam was that given the guerrilla nature of the conflict many soldiers began to regard the Vietnamese people themselves, not the Viet Cong, as their enemy. Since it was obvious from the beginning to the planners of the war that winning Vietnam required winning the “hearts and minds” of its people, this was a disaster. While top government officials maintained the fiction that American soldiers were fighting to free the Vietnamese people from the communists, many of the men on the ground were driven to adopt a stance of total war against the countryside, burning villages, taking part in “free fire zones” and so on. It’s not that American soldiers were monsters – they were put an an unwinnable situation by their government and as a result drifted into using tactics that undermined the larger goals of the war. Despite what you might have learned from the know-nothing chatterers on the right, the congressional hearings in the early 1970’s were about something more serious than hippies smearing vets. They were about acknowledging the failure of an entire nation-building strategy. The war atrocities, particularly those against civilians, were evidence of that strategic failure. As we embark on another dubious nation-building experiment in Iraq it’s important that we go into battle with our eyes wide open – not blinkered by politically correct ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/89 "2004-08-31T22:46:14Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Are you fucking suggesting that young American drafteees actually performed these dastardly deeds as a matter of couse as Kerry suggested? Fuck! You telling me that the boys I grew up with could do such a thing. I grew up with some assholes thats for sure, but cutting off peoples exrtremities is way beyond the norm. If you want to believe that bullshit, go ahead but pray tell me how many people had their extremities cut off by young men (who weren’t doctors) within the continental United States in the last 40 years. Milgram wept. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/90 "2004-08-31T22:59:55Z")
> [@rockle](#): > > OK, sorry, maybe I’m speaking out of turn here, but I believe a lot of people said the same thing about Pvt. Lynndie England. YMMV. Come back to me when evidence comes out that she cut off Iraqi exremities. > [@Chefguy](#): > > My initial reaction every time our base was rocketed or some of my friends were killed or wounded was rage. I would have cheerfully killed the first person that looked sideways at me. I can’t help but notice that you actually didn’t. Was that becuase you were brought up better than your comrades? Hey look guys, I’m not ignoring Calley. But I am challenging the impression left by your proposed CiC that as a rule young Americans left their morals behind once they entered Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/91 "2004-08-31T23:22:04Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > I can’t help but notice that you actually didn’t. Was that becuase you were brought up better than your comrades? I would hardly tell you, a complete stranger to me, what I did or didn’t do in those situations. I can tell you that if you feel that you have a license to kill or maim, it is likely that you may. Abu Graib is a prime example of humans let off the moral leash. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/92 "2004-09-01T01:11:02Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > I’m on record as to not taking a position wrt Bush and Kerry, and hopeful of a Clinton canditacy in 2008, but the more I hear about Kerry, the more he disgusts me. You liberals think you’ve got an ally? Bullshit ! all you’ve got here is a self serving POLITICIAN whose shown his stripes by denigrating his peers when it was popular. His flip flops clearly respond to media assessments of the mood of the country. If god forbid he is elected, I sincerely fear for the future of all humanity. This man is a LIAR to serve his OWN interests. You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and just left it at “He’s a politician.” That’s the one thing that always amazes me about the right wing. You guys actually believe in the people you vote for. How do you do it? ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/93 "2004-09-01T02:24:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > A-HA! I have caught YOU in a lie! That article was NOT written by anyone named **Roger Thornhill** but by somebody with an EVEN COOLER NAME! Oh, shit! And here I was hoping that no one had even heard of that parochial little journal, let alone read it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/94 "2004-09-01T03:41:17Z")
(muttering) Dude’s got like the coolest Welsh name AND lives in Hong Kong while I’m stuck with a generic Merkin name and live in suburban Chicago. Does that seem right to you? Can I assume this quote had something to do with your choice of a username? > [@](#): > > In the world of advertising, there’s no such thing as a lie. There’s only expedient exaggeration. Yeah, I’m continuing my hijack. **grienspace** totally lost me when he said that Kerry’s testimony was a GOOD and POPULAR political move in 1971. Nope, it was seen as political suicide back then. Telling hard truths is rarely a good idea if you wanna grow up and be a politician. And fighting the War wasn’t cool. It was social suicide that didn’t even get me laid. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/95 "2004-09-01T04:57:17Z")
**Dropzone** , and here’s me in Hong Kong dreaming of life in the city that gave the world 1968. ‘In the world of advertising, there’s no such thing as a lie. There’s only expedient exaggeration.’ That’s a line from a film, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/96 "2004-09-01T12:44:30Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > I’m still drawing a blank here. In what part of Vietnam was GWB valiantly fighting the plague of Communism on that day? Give it a rest already. Bush admits that Kerry has the stronger war record and that serving in Vietnam was more admirable than his (GW’s) service was. GW’s division wasn’t called up for active duty or he would/could have went too. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/97 "2004-09-01T12:54:20Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Give it a rest already. Bush admits that Kerry has the stronger war record and that serving in Vietnam was more admirable than his (GW’s) service was. Even more so, you’d think that those folks attacking Kerry’s Vietnam record would give it a rest, seeing as how even Bush admits his record is inferior. But that’s not going to happen, is it? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/98 "2004-09-01T13:45:09Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > That’s a line from a film, isn’t it? Bah! Bah, indeed! Don’t we have a rule that if you take your name from a movie character you must memorize the entire script of said movie? No? Otherwise I’d have to skydive in order to have a name from the world of parachuting? Well, that’ll never happen so I’ll take back one of my bahs. But only one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/99 "2004-09-01T13:47:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Yeah, I’m continuing my hijack. **grienspace** totally lost me when he said that Kerry’s testimony was a GOOD and POPULAR political move in 1971. Nope, it was seen as political suicide back then. Telling hard truths is rarely a good idea if you wanna grow up and be a politician. And fighting the War wasn’t cool. It was social suicide that didn’t even get me laid. How old were you in 1971? Old enough to get laid ? If you read the [testimony](http://www.c-span.org/2004vote/jkerrytestimony.asp) that Kerry gave, you’ll note the applause he and the anti-war statements get throughout . For examples the applause following the following quotes. > [@chairman](#): > > I would like to add simply on my own account that I regret very much the action of the Supreme Court in denying the veterans the right to use the Mall. > [@Kerry](#): > > Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese. Each day- > [@Kerry](#): > > Finally, this administration has done us the ultimate dishonor. They have attempted to disown us and the sacrifice we made for this country. In their blindness and fear they have tried to deny that we are veterans or that we served in Nam. We do not need their testimony. Our own scars and stumps of limbs are witnesses enough for others and for ourselves. > We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission, to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbarous war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and the fear that have driven this country these last 10 years and more and so when, in 30 years from now, our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say “Vietnam” and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory but mean instead the pace where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning. > > Thank you > [@Kerry](#): > > Mr. Kerry: Well, Senator, frankly it does not appeal to me if American men have to continue to die when they don’t have to, particularly when it seems the Government of this country is more concerned with the legality of where men sleep than it is with the legality of where they drop bombs. > [@Kerry](#): > > But what I am saying is that I believe that there is a mood in this country which I know you are aware of and you have been one of the strongest critics of this war for the longest time. But I think if can talk in this legislative body about filibustering for porkbarrell programs, then we should start now to talk about filibustering for the saving of lives and of our country. You’ll find several more instances in that particular session with Kerry generating applause. Sort of like Arnold in front of Republicans. You can’t tell me that this young man wasn’t laying the foundations for a successful political career. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095/100 "2004-09-01T15:31:02Z")
At Virginia Postrels site ( [http://www.dynamist.com/weblog/archives/001273.html](http://www.dynamist.com/weblog/archives/001273.html) ) she has a letter from a reader hypothesizing that Kerry may have been in Cambodia on Tet (feb 17), 1969 rather than Christmas 1968, which would jive with pretty much the rest of his story (holiday, ARVN’s shooting celebratory bullets, substantial activity on the border, etc.). Purely hypothetical, but hardly implausible. YMMV I had actually thought that the only dispute remaining about Kerry in Cambodia was one of the date - Christmas '68 seeming unlikely given what else we think we know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-christmas-1968/262095.md?page=6)