# Kerry Flip Flops again.... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 13, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322 "2004-09-13T22:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/1 "2004-09-13T22:21:00Z")
“Kerry is a cosponsor of legislation (S. 1431) that would ban all semi-automatic shotguns in America, including the Remington 11-87 he so proudly displayed at a recent campaign event in West Virginia!” My local news… in “liberal” Honolulu… :smack: I think I’m being taken for a ride. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/2 "2004-09-13T22:41:08Z")
According to the [text](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.1431:) of the bill, the semi-automatic shotguns that would fall under this ban are > [@](#): > > © The following shotguns or copies or duplicates thereof: > > `(i) Armscor 30 BG; > > `(ii) SPAS 12 or LAW 12; > > `(iii) Striker 12; or > > `(iv) Streetsweeper. > > \ > `(H) A semiautomatic shotgun that has– > > `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; > > `(ii) a pistol grip; > > `(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or > > `(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds. > > `(I) A shotgun with a revolving cylinder. I will freely admit that I know next to nothing about guns, but looking at the [11-87](http://www.remington.com/NR/exeres/000015a1sekeyfstotbxeprt/about+us.asp?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2faboutus%2fhistory%2fm1187%2ehtm&NRNODEGUID=%7bB8000E02-1422-45E7-9A1A-EB7209E8673C%7d&NRQUERYTERMINATOR=1&cookie%5Ftest=1) can you explain how it falls under this description? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/3 "2004-09-13T23:11:00Z")
So, **SnakeSpirit** what happens if you manage to successfully use the words “Kerry” and “flip flop” in a sentence more than a certain number of times per month? Are there prizes? ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/4 "2004-09-13T23:16:20Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > So, **SnakeSpirit** what happens if you manage to successfully use the words “Kerry” and “flip flop” in a sentence more than a certain number of times per month? Are there prizes? I think you turn into George W. Bush. So, you and I are tied now with one apiece… wanna go for the gold? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/5 "2004-09-13T23:26:05Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > I think you turn into George W. Bush. Damn, sweet deal! Lots of vacation time, you get to dress up like a soldier, and whenever you do something wrong you can blame it on the people who complain about it. Wish I had a job like that… I just figured you got a Republican tote bag or something. It’s all making more sense now. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/6 "2004-09-13T23:27:33Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > According to the [text](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.1431:) of the bill, the semi-automatic shotguns that would fall under this ban are I will freely admit that I know next to nothing about guns, but looking at the [11-87](http://www.remington.com/NR/exeres/000015a1sekeyfstotbxeprt/about+us.asp?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2faboutus%2fhistory%2fm1187%2ehtm&NRNODEGUID=%7bB8000E02-1422-45E7-9A1A-EB7209E8673C%7d&NRQUERYTERMINATOR=1&cookie%5Ftest=1) can you explain how it falls under this description? I scanned the Remington info also, and I don’t know if that kind of a stock can be called a ‘pistol grip,’ (I know some rifles have no curve in their stocks like this one does), and the infor didn’t state the round capacity, and I won’t guess if it can hold more than 5 rounds. My newspaper didn’t say _why_ it would be banned, but I’m sure Honolulu PD will ban it if they can. The reporter is “currently unavailable.” Perhaps I should have titled this one “Kerry Shoots himself in the Foot.” :rolleyes: It’s not getting harder knowing who to believe, it’s just getting harder finding **ANYONE** to believe. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/7 "2004-09-13T23:44:22Z")
I took the picture of the 11-87 and edited the stock ‘cheek piece’ off, and it sure looks like a pistol grip that way. I tried to post an edited picture, but ran into difficulties. Save the picture as .BMP and edit it off and you’ll see what I mean. Depends on what you call a “pistol grip” I guess. ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/8 "2004-09-13T23:49:25Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > So, **SnakeSpirit** what happens if you manage to successfully use the words “Kerry” and “flip flop” in a sentence more than a certain number of times per month? Are there prizes? Actually… If you go to [GOPTeamLeader.com](http://www.gopteamleader.com/), you can sign up and report message board conversations. From the site: (registration, unfortuantely, is required) > [@](#): > > Report on Message Boards - 5 GOPoints > Tell us about conversations you’ve seen and had on Internet message boards. You can use your GOPoints to receive a prize. For example, a handsome GOP bumper sticker can be yours for only 75 points. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/9 "2004-09-13T23:56:45Z")
Am I the only one who thinks “flip-flops” sounds like it means he changed his position twice? Changing your opinion from one thing to another could be a “flip.” A “flip-flop” might be “Kerry uses gun, signs bill banning it, then goes and uses it again.” Oh yeah, and whatever flip-flop means, it doesn’t sound like that’s what he actually did. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/10 "2004-09-14T00:00:46Z")
This text from the original bill cited above: > [@](#): > > `(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip’ means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip. Looks like that sews up the 11-87… Jeez, he co-sponsored that bill! And he’s clueless as to the implications? Kerry is getting Bushier every day! Who the F\* do I vote for now? Nader? He’s looking smarter by just keeping quiet! ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/11 "2004-09-14T00:03:38Z")
(Note - I think this is heading to GD pretty quickly…) The bill we’re discussing is the reauthorization / extension of the “assault weapons” ban, isn’t that correct? (Note - many SDMB members, including **Snake** I believe, do not think that the targeted guns are truly “assault weapons”). Three points: - The ban was in force up until a couple of days ago. If they’ve been producing and selling Remington 11-87s recently (eg the one Kerry owns), then it can’t be a banned “assault weapon” under the recently-expired legislation. If it wasn’t banned under the recently-expired legislation, it is very unlikely that it will be banned in the bill, which seeks to mirror the earlier legislation. - Kerry’s been in favour of the ban for quite a while. I believe he voted in favour of the original ban, for example. Where’s the flip-flop here? - Kerry’s campaign states that Bush was in favour of the ban four years ago. Anyone able to confirm or rebut this assertion? I don’t think it’s a flip-flop to change your mind, so I won’t pin that label on Bush. But if his position has changed, and his opponent’s has not, he’s unwise to call his opponent a flip-flopper. It could blow up in his face. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/12 "2004-09-14T00:11:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks “flip-flops” sounds like it means he changed his position twice? Changing your opinion from one thing to another could be a “flip.” A “flip-flop” might be “Kerry uses gun, signs bill banning it, then goes and uses it again.” > > Oh yeah, and whatever flip-flop means, it doesn’t sound like that’s what he actually did. Not at all. Everybody thinks like just like you. I’m sure he just borrowed the shotgun for the rally, unaware that he had banned it. I think that would qualify as a ‘flop’ rather than a ‘flip.’ Like I said earlier - guess you missed it - I should have titled it “Kerry Shoots Himself in the Foot.” Just in case anyone has the mistaken notion that I’m choosing sides here might want to reference this extensive exposé: [This Land](http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/this_land.html) It really puts things in perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/13 "2004-09-14T00:14:36Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > Who the F\* do I vote for now? Nader? He’s looking smarter by just keeping quiet! Is he keeping quiet, or are you not hearing him? Hmm. Maybe he really is keeping quiet. Searching Nader’s site, I can’t even find a _position_ on guns, gun control, or anything of the sort! This can’t be a plus either. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/14 "2004-09-14T00:23:07Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > (Note - I think this is heading to GD pretty quickly…) > > The bill we’re discussing is the reauthorization / extension of the “assault weapons” ban, isn’t that correct? (Note - many SDMB members, including **Snake** I believe, do not think that the targeted guns are truly “assault weapons”). Maybe that’s what they call it, but it also has added a whole shitload of other weapons that are by no means ‘assault weapons.’ In _anybody’s_ description. Click on the link provided by **otto** earlier, [reproduced here for your convenience](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.1431:) , and you’ll see the full description is: > [@](#): > > A BILL > To reauthorize the assault weapons ban, and for other purposes. > > Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, > > SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. > > This Act may be cited as the `Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003’. Emphasis mine. Sneaky. (Oh, and please, Mods, don’t send this to GD, it’s much more FUN here!) ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/15 "2004-09-14T00:23:49Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > (Note - I think this is heading to GD pretty quickly…) > > The bill we’re discussing is the reauthorization / extension of the “assault weapons” ban, isn’t that correct? (Note - many SDMB members, including **Snake** I believe, do not think that the targeted guns are truly “assault weapons”). > > Three points: > > - The ban was in force up until a couple of days ago. If they’ve been producing and selling Remington 11-87s recently (eg the one Kerry owns), then it can’t be a banned “assault weapon” under the recently-expired legislation. If it wasn’t banned under the recently-expired legislation, it is very unlikely that it will be banned in the bill, which seeks to mirror the earlier legislation. > - Kerry’s been in favour of the ban for quite a while. I believe he voted in favour of the original ban, for example. Where’s the flip-flop here? > - Kerry’s campaign states that Bush was in favour of the ban four years ago. Anyone able to confirm or rebut this assertion? I don’t think it’s a flip-flop to change your mind, so I won’t pin that label on Bush. But if his position has changed, and his opponent’s has not, he’s unwise to call his opponent a flip-flopper. It could blow up in his face. I’m confused too. I’m not seeing the flip-flop. AFAIK, he’s always been for the ban. I also don’t know why Kerry had a gun, I saw no explanation in the OP and I do not follow links in every single post so if it was mentioned in one I missed it. Was it his own personal gun that he was waving around at some rally for the heck of it or was he hunting or was he displaying the gun as a prop while he talked about the assault weapon ban? As for Bush, I saw a report on a news channel a couple days ago that Bush had stated that he would sign the renewal if someone puts it in front of him. In other words he’s not going out of his way to sign it, nor will his staff go out of their way to stick it in front of him so unless Mrs. Brady manages to get past the Secret Service guys and stick the bill under his nose he’s not signing it. That’s not exactly a “flip-flop” more of a “there’s nothing in it for me because the N.R.A. contributes more money to my campaign so I am going to avoid the issue”. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/16 "2004-09-14T00:23:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is he keeping quiet, or are you not hearing him? > > Hmm. Maybe he really is keeping quiet. Searching Nader’s site, I can’t even find a _position_ on guns, gun control, or anything of the sort! This can’t be a plus either. In the past, Nader has said that he feels that guns should be as tightly regulated as automobiles. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/17 "2004-09-14T00:53:58Z")
[http://www.issues2000.org/2004/George\_W\_\_Bush\_Gun\_Control.htm](http://www.issues2000.org/2004/George_W__Bush_Gun_Control.htm) When asked about whether he supported the assault weapons ban in 2000, Bush quite clearly refused to say yes or no. So he hasn’t waffled, because he’s every bit as indecisive now as he was back then. A pillar of steadfast principle, really. And add me to the list of folks who are puzzled about why this thread wasn’t started in GD, which is clearly the correct forum. Are the political wankers not going to be satisfied until they’ve turned all nine forums exclusively into lists of insult-hurling matches related to the presidential election, and all threads about enjoyable subjects are buried under 43 skajillion pages of whining and bitching about why {Bush, Kerry} is the worst human bieng on the planet? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/18 "2004-09-14T02:25:49Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > Maybe that’s what they call it, but it also has added a whole shitload of other weapons that are by no means ‘assault weapons.’ In _anybody’s_ description…Sneaky. Awfully nice of you to reproduce the link, but I’d already had a look at it and at the [original 1994 Act](http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/laws/majorlaw/h3355_en.htm). The “and for other purposes” text is standard legislative language. Maybe there are significant changes on other types of gun, but the 1994 Act and the current bill are very similar on the particular topic of this thread - semi-automatic shotguns such as Kerry’s Remington. Apart from an alteration to remove meaningless language such as “protrudes conspiciously” (how many cm equates to conspicious protrusion, exactly?), the main change is in how many of the assault weapon characteristics must be possessed by a shotgun. The Act stipulates at least 2, but the bill can be read to require either 1 or 3 - it’s unclear. > [@Federal Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994](#): > > `(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon’ means– > … > `(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; > `(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; `(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and > `(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.’. > [@The bill in question - Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003](#): > > `(H) A semiautomatic shotgun that has-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; > `(ii) a pistol grip; `(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or > `(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds. What do you think of my questions in my earlier post? Why do you think this gun will now be banned under similar legislation if it wasn’t banned before? Where’s the change in Kerry’s position? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/19 "2004-09-14T02:39:46Z")
Kerry co-sponsored the bill that would have EXPANDED the AWB. It has not passed. He was given that particular shotgun by a union in Racine, WV, on Labor Day, and stated upon receiving it “I thank you for the gift, but I can’t take it to the debate with me.” His [Bill](http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.1431:) would have banned “gift guns”, which this was. > [@](#): > > ``` > `(5) It shall be unlawful for any person to transfer a semiautomatic assault weapon to which paragraph (1) does not apply, except through-- > > `(A) a licensed dealer, and for purposes of subsection (t) in the case of such a transfer, the weapon shall be considered to be transferred from the business inventory of the licensed dealer and the dealer shall be considered to be the transferor; or > > `(B) a State or local law enforcement agency if the transfer is made in accordance with the procedures provided for in subsection (t) of this section and section 923(g). > > ``` If he is such a gun enthusiast, why is he [firing a shotgun for a photo-op with ear or eye protection?](http://sinequanon.spleenville.com/archives/007403.php) Remington President Tommy Milner said, “Rest assured, Remington was neither aware of this presentation in advance nor in any way supportive of its intent to support Senator Kerry’s candidacy. In fact, the company remains amused by ongoing photos of Senator Kerry shooting without either ear or eye protection while discharging a firearm.” As for the reason people are saying it would have been banned in the first place is the loose wording of the “semi-automatic shotgun that has… a pistol grip” and the opponents of the bill stating that the rear hand grip area of the stock could be called a pistol grip. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322/20 "2004-09-14T02:46:45Z")
Oh, and **Atticus Finch** , when the language of the law is altered from > [@](#): > > a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of… a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon to > [@](#): > > A semiautomatic shotgun that has… a pistol grip then this pistol grip no longer has to fit even the weakly worded “protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon”, it can be interpreted without that qualifier, and could, arguably, include this shotgun. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-flip-flops-again/264322.md?page=2)