# Kerry is an anti-gay bigot and a flip-flopper. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926 "2004-09-24T19:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/61 "2004-09-27T03:06:33Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > My friends don’t push for amendments against me. Well, your enemies don’t get up in front of the entire U.S. Senate and say, > [@](#): > > I am going to vote against this bill…because I believe that this debate is fundamentally ugly, and it is fundamentally political. > > … > > It is hard to believe that this bill is anything other than a thinly veiled attempt to score political debating points by scapegoating gay and lesbian Americans. > > … > > If this were truly a defense of marriage act it would expand the learning experience for would-be husbands and wives. It would provide for counseling for all troubled marriages, not just for those who can afford it. It would provide treatment on demand for those with alcohol and substance abuse… It would guarantee daycare for every family that struggles and needs it. And, if you don’t realize that, you are going to have a hell of a hard time finding many friends at all! ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/62 "2004-09-27T03:19:16Z")
Oh yeah, and [here](http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?id=12786&sd=06/17/04) is the endorsement by Human Rights Campaign for John Kerry. I think they take a very intelligent view on the matter: > [@](#): > > “From voting against the Defense of Marriage Act to actively opposing ‘don’t ask, don’t tell,’ John Kerry is a true leader for our community,” said HRC president Cheryl Jacques. “Just six months into his first Senate term in 1985, he introduced a gay civil rights bill. His aggressive support for our community continued unabated for the years that followed, demonstrated time and again by perfect HRC ratings on GLBT issues in Congress.” > > … > Added Jacques: “While we disagree with Senator Kerry on the issue of marriage for same-sex couples, he is firmly opposed to the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would deny our community equality for generations. His opposition stands in stark contrast to President Bush, who has not only endorsed the amendment but is one of its chief advocates.” ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/63 "2004-09-27T03:21:25Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Well, your enemies don’t get up in front of the entire U.S. Senate and say, > > And, if you don’t realize that, you are going to have a hell of a hard time finding many friends at all! Yes, but then he [did:](http://www.pridesource.com/article.shtml?article=6724) > [@](#): > > Though he opposes amending the US Constitution to ban marriage for same-sex couples, Kerry said he supports amending the Massachusetts Constitution for the same purpose, as long as it provides for civil unions for same-sex couples. Of course, I said that on page one. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/64 "2004-09-27T03:35:41Z")
From your own freakin’ link: > [@](#): > > If the Massachusetts Legislature crafts an appropriate amendment that provides for partnership and civil unions, then I would support it, and it would advance the goal of equal protection," Kerry told The Boston Globe. But you are so blinded by the fact that he supports something with all the benefits of marriage but throws a bone to those who are offended by the use of the word “marriage” in this context that you are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Well, all I can say is I am glad that the people who run Human Rights Campaign are more sensible about this than you are. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/65 "2004-09-27T03:44:03Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > From your own freakin’ link: > > But you are so blinded by the fact that he supports something with all the benefits of marriage but throws a bone to those who are offended by the use of the word “marriage” in this context that you are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Well, all I can say is I am glad that the people who run Human Rights Campaign are more sensible about this than you are. The HRC ain’t too fond of his opinions either from your quoted link. I’m sorry that I don’t want to be treated like a dog that gets thrown a bone when it comes to equality. Maybe we should go and change the term of marriage for interracial couples to something else to pander to the racists too. :rolleyes: Moreover, your baby and the bathwater isn’t applicable to me as I said in the OP that I’m voting for the schmuck anyway. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/66 "2004-09-27T03:51:09Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > The HRC ain’t too fond of his opinions either from your quoted link. Sounded like a fairly enthusiastic endorsement to me. The difference between them and you is that they recognize that Kerry agrees with them on the most important issues and while they may disagree with him on this one issue, they don’t harp on it like you do. > [@](#): > > Moreover, your baby and the bathwater isn’t applicable to me as I said in the OP that I’m voting for the schmuck anyway. Well, I am glad that you are. However, you also seem at the same time to be doing your best to undermine his getting elected with your over-the-top rhetoric in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/67 "2004-09-27T03:55:26Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Sounded like a fairly enthusiastic endorsement to me. Or to put it another way, I missed the part where they called Kerry an “anti-gay bigot” and such. Maybe I was just not reading between the lines enough when they said: > [@](#): > > John Kerry is a true leader for our community…His aggressive support for our community continued unabated for the years that followed, demonstrated time and again by perfect HRC ratings on GLBT issues in Congress. You know, “true leader for our community”, “anti-gay bigot”…they are all within the realm of subtle differences in wording. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/68 "2004-09-27T04:07:53Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Well, I am glad that you are. However, you also seem at the same time to be doing your best to undermine his getting elected with your over-the-top rhetoric in this thread. Ahh, you’re just like **Apos** then. Oy. I’m glad you hopped on the short bus with him because it does explain your motives. Forbid that ANYONE criticize Kerry for it may cost him the election. If Kerry has done anything wrong we’ll just stick a bucket over our head and our thumbs up our collective democratic asses and pretend it didn’t happen. Way to fight ignorance. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/69 "2004-09-27T04:10:52Z")
By the way, **stpauler** , I think this is about the most heated discussion I have had on the SDMB with someone who I am really on the same side of the larger issue with. (The only possible exception might be in the lead-up to the 2000 election when I was arguing with those who said that Gore was no better than Bush…I voted for Nader but only because living in N.Y. state, I had the luxury of voting my conscience. And, even then, I have mixed feelings about having done it [mainly modulated by feeling proud that I argued strongly for the position that all those people in swing states should vote for Gore] and I sure as hell won’t be doing it this time.) I understand that civil rights issues like this are really sensitive and it is easy to see any political compromise as selling out on a fundamental principle. But, for heaven’s sake, this just ain’t the way the real world works. That is why Human Rights Campaign is heartily endorsing Kerry. I am sure some of them too were offended by the fact that he didn’t support their view on gay marriage 100%. **But, they recognize that what they will accomplish by harping on this is absolutely nothing but ensuring that they remain completely second class citizens for a hell of a long time to come.** ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/70 "2004-09-27T04:16:59Z")
Look, I am not endorsing not saying that you disagree with Kerry on some things. That is why I linked to the HRC endorsement. They took exactly the right tack in my view. They acknowledged differences but didn’t harp on them, but rather chose to emphasize the larger good. And, they didn’t resort to overheated rhetoric like “anti-gay bigot” to express their disagreement. Politics ain’t all about ideals. It is about the most effective ways to move the nation in the directions you believe. And, that takes some compromise, even compromise in some areas where you find it difficult to compromise. What HRC did by mentioning that they disagreed with Kerry on that one issue was “fighting ignorance”. What you did was, in my opinion, more along the lines of spreading it by using overheated rhetoric and failing to see the forest through the trees. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/71 "2004-09-27T04:58:41Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Maybe we should go and change the term of marriage for interracial couples to something else to pander to the racists too. :rolleyes: Boy, I do get a little post-crazy late at night, so I’ll lead you with one more thought along the lines of this that you said: Now, my guess is that if you go back and look into the writings of Abraham Lincoln, you will find things that show that he is a racist by our modern-day standards and sensibilities. Do you think it would have been useful to their case or even to the cause of “fighting ignorance” at the time if the Black leaders like Frederick Douglas had gone around calling Abraham Lincoln “a racist bigot”? I kind of doubt it…But, the real racist bigots would certainly not have minded one bit! ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/72 "2004-09-27T05:22:58Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Look, I am not endorsing not saying that you disagree with Kerry on some things. That is why I linked to the HRC endorsement. They took exactly the right tack in my view. They acknowledged differences but didn’t harp on them, but rather chose to emphasize the larger good. And, they didn’t resort to overheated rhetoric like “anti-gay bigot” to express their disagreement. Well, if you notice, they don’t even call Bush or Falwell a bigot either. The HRC ain’t posting in the pit. I am. (And I’ve got issues with the HRC but that’s whole other thread). > [@jshore](#): > > Politics ain’t all about ideals. It is about the most effective ways to move the nation in the directions you believe. And, that takes some compromise, even compromise in some areas where you find it difficult to compromise. I completely agree with you there. Of course when Kerry said " that he believes marriage — both legally and religiously — should be reserved between a man and woman", it really doesn’t leave remove for future compromise unless he flip-flops his position (again). He’s stuck there and won’t be able to support gay marriage. > [@jshore](#): > > What HRC did by mentioning that they disagreed with Kerry on that one issue was “fighting ignorance”. What you did was, in my opinion, more along the lines of spreading it by using overheated rhetoric and failing to see the forest through the trees. Here’s the funny thing, you try and call marriage a civil union and you’ll have [Polycarp](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=277691) on your ass: “But not by abolishing marriage in favor of “civil unions.” And not by legislating your own favorite definition to the detriment of others.”. Someone insinuates **Bricker** is a bigot because he supports state by state voting on gay marriage and the ability to amend a state’s constitution to stop it (something that Kerry is supporting). And since Kerrry is apparently untouchable in this forum and above criticism, I can’t call him to task for the same bullshit? Umm…, no. I personally don’t want to live in a bubble and not know and vent and celebrate what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/73 "2004-09-27T13:40:34Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Someone insinuates **Bricker** is a bigot because he supports state by state voting on gay marriage and the ability to amend a state’s constitution to stop it (something that Kerry is supporting). Nope. It’s because of his gloating and the fact that he specifically said that gay relationships aren’t equal to heterosexual ones. Also **Bricker** would ban the recognition of gay marriages with no proviso that there be fully recognized Civil Unions. Kerry has specifically said he would only support the marriage ban _if_ there were fully legally recoginized Civil Unions. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/74 "2004-09-27T14:28:15Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Nope. It’s because of his gloating and the fact that he specifically said that gay relationships aren’t equal to heterosexual ones. Also **Bricker** would ban the recognition of gay marriages with no proviso that there be fully recognized Civil Unions. Ah, I missed that. Of course I did see him say [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5291625&postcount=145) in the original thread that started this: > [@](#): > > To that end, I have written to my usually worthless state delegate and my somewhat less-worthless state senator, pointing out that this law is the result of backlash, not reasonable for a state to impose, noting that I support its repeal, and urging them to follow suit. He also said [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5285508&postcount=2) in the ensuing BBQ thread: > [@](#): > > As I noted above, I will not work to persuade others to approve same-sex marriage, since I don’t support it. > > And I would point out that the Louisana amendment does not purport to forbid same-sex civil unions. When Virginia passed a law forbidding civil unions as well as same-sex marriage, I spoke out here - and in real life - strongly against it. So, he’s written to his senator against the anti-gay law in Louisiana. He’s spoken out against a law forbidding civil unions and marriage in Virginia. I don’t see how he’s gloating that it’s passed. He then further [explains](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5286665&postcount=47): > [@](#): > > And not having read the actual Louisana amendment, I was judging it solely by brief descriptions in headlines. I now see that the amendment DOES, in fact, purport to prohibit civil unions… and I am dismayed. It is absolutely terrible that a valid purpose: the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman – is used to secure agreement for an invalid purpose: forbidding a private agreement between two people I don’t see how he’s gloating about something he sees as terrible because he [says:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5285449#post5285449) > [@](#): > > I would amend the federal tax code to recognize civil unions with the same benefits as accure to marriage if the persons claiming such benefits reside in a state that recognizes their union. And actually Kerry has never mentioned amending the federal tax code to recognize civil unions. Of course, after perusing all of the posts of the original thread, the bbq thread, and this thread, I’m showing no facts to support your claim that he “would ban the recognition of gay marriages with no proviso that there be fully recognized Civil Unions.” That might his position all along. I don’t know. So I’m going to ask you where you saw that or I’m asking **Bricker** to come forward and state his opinion for the record. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/75 "2004-09-27T14:42:26Z")
Sometimes people have opinions on other posters that have developed over the course of numerous threads rather than one or two that you’ve only recently read. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/76 "2004-09-27T15:57:56Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Quoting the Republican Party platform again? No, the Constitution > [@James Madison and the Founding Fathers (band name!)](#): > > The United States shall guarantee to each State in this Union a Republican Form of Government… It’s just that Karl Rove takes a very literal meaning to the text! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/77 "2004-09-27T16:20:23Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Ahh, you’re just like **Apos** then. Oy. I’m glad you hopped on the short bus with him because it does explain your motives. Forbid that ANYONE criticize Kerry for it may cost him the election. If Kerry has done anything wrong we’ll just stick a bucket over our head and our thumbs up our collective democratic asses and pretend it didn’t happen. Way to fight ignorance. :rolleyes: Add [Miller](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5290264&postcount=142) to the growing list as well… > [@](#): > > and during the runup to the election, I’m going to keep my mouth shut about it because the last fucking thing I want to do is help out the candidate who’s overwhelmingly bigoted. I suspect that the list is longer…these are the posters who are just upfront about their reasons. (And FWIW, to pre-emptively dismiss the partisan canard…I’m equally annoyed at Republicans who do a similar thing…and said so in that thread. For example, not calling the Swifties out on what they are doing, even if they can smell the stench from where they are) ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/78 "2004-09-27T16:46:32Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > He isn’t a bigot, but he may be a flip-flopper. > [http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-02-11-kerry-gay-marriage\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-02-11-kerry-gay-marriage_x.htm) > > "And when Kerry opposed federal legislation in 1996 that defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman, he compared the law to 1960s efforts in the South to criminalize interracial marriages and accused his supporters of engaging in the “politics of division.” > > “This is an unconstitutional, unprecedented, unnecessary and mean-spirited bill,” Kerry declared then even as 85 senators and President Clinton supported the measure. " > > If Kerry opposes gay marriage… why did he oppose a law defining marriage as between a man and a woman? Why did he compare it to criminalizing interracial marriages? > > And remember… Clinton was FOR the legislation, and Kerry still called it “unconstitutional” and “mean-spirited…” I think that constitutes the difference between the two candidates. George Bush wants to pass a constitutional amendment that would prevent states like Vermont and Massachussetts from recognizing homosexual unions at all. John Kerry supports those states’ recognition of those unions, but is not willing to insists that residents of other states do as well., whether because he honestly has a problem with it or because he already has MA and VT pretty much sewn up, and would like people in other states t vote for him. A civil union places no “Faith and Credit” demands on other states, so legislatures “opt in” by passing similar laws. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/79 "2004-09-27T19:24:59Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > (And FWIW, to pre-emptively dismiss the partisan canard…I’m equally annoyed at Republicans who do a similar thing…and said so in that thread. > > For example, not calling the Swifties out on what they are doing, even if they can smell the stench from where they are) Come on, that comparison doesn’t wash at all!!! For the 96th billionth time, I am willing to say that I disagree with Kerry on this issue. However, I am also intelligent enough to recognize that Kerry’s positions on gay issues still put him among the most enlightened of the politicians in the U.S., or as the HRC puts it, “John Kerry is a true leader for our community.” And, I recognize that if you go around calling such people “anti-gay bigots” you only hurt your cause and muddy the waters by equating those who are actively fighting against equality for gays and lesbians with those who have done more than anyone of the people posturing on this messageboard to actually advance the cause for gays and lesbians, even if this has meant that they have compromised for whatever reasons (political or personal). Do you honestly think it is a useful descriptor to call nearly every member of the U.S. Senate an “anti-gay bigot” because 86 of them voted for DOMA and of the 14 that didn’t, I doubt many gave as eloquent a speech against it as Kerry. Your analogy to the Swifties totally sucks! You are holding the Republicans to a standard of “You must condemn the worst among you” and the Democrats to a standard that “You must condemn anyone who does not live up to the absolute highest standards on this.” It also puts you in the strange position of claiming you know better than the HRC whereas those people have done more to fight for gay and lesbians than you have ever dreamed of doing. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926/80 "2004-09-27T22:47:35Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I’ve completely established that. He says in one instance that religion should not be the basis of his law-making and then flip-flops when it comes to gay marriage from abortion. Except that’s not what he says at all. > [@](#): > > Really? I think I showed Barney Frank saying he was only giving 80% (whereas Barney is giving 100%). Your point is obviously wrong that you’ve gotten to the point of hyperbole and out right lying. Maybe you should quit while you’re so very far behind. This is getting pathetic. Of course there are gay rights activists that are more “pure” than Kerry. but none of them will ever make it anywhere near a race for national office. > [@](#): > > You showed your hand there. The only reason you’re defending Kerry is not because he’s right, you’re afraid that he’ll lose from any critique proffered. How very, very sad. And blind. Very blind. I didn’t say that, and you are a habitual liar. I don’t think Kerry is 100% right. I don’t think he’s a bigot. I mentioned that to point out that far from “flip-flopping” on this issue, Kerry has maintained his stance pro-gay rights even though it may cost him the election. That’s part of your ridiculous smear against him. The link, originally, went to an ad that is running all over swing states slamming Kerry for supporting gay civil unions and being against the DOMA and FMA. > [@](#): > > How am I lying about his record when I’m quoting him > directly? You lied when you claimed he flip-flopped his position on gay marriage. His position has been consistent. You’ve already been roundly demonstrated to be full of shit on this issue. > [@](#): > > A man isn’t the same as a woman but shouldn’t they be afforded the same rights? The rights are afforded to the union. And Kerry wants gay couples to have the same rights. > [@](#): > > Oh, I concede your point. I don’t see the difference between calling a certain group of people african-americans or negroes. I only hope I don’t have to rely on someone as profoundly retarded as you to defend MY rights. It’s perfectly legitimate to think that gay couples do not fit the traditional concept of marriage. Plenty of gay activists agree. Jonathan Rauch, for one. Gay marriage DOES change the definition of marriage. You can support changing it, and I do, and he does. But the reality is that it is a change. Your bullshit about this being akin to calling blacks a derogatory term is worthless. > [@](#): > > No, I’m only addressing Kerry because THAT’S WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT. It’s not about abortion, but there’s a tangential relation in the OP. Do I want to have this veer off and talk about RU-486 policies in France? No. If you can’t focus on it, get a script for your ADHD, and then come back to the SDMB. But it’s nice you can try and polarize everything into its nice little boxes. The fact is, your argument completely apart with any sincere examination of what you are saying, and any attempt to apply it globally. By your argument, millions of pro-gay rights people, including homosexuals, are anti-gay bigots. You have three times refused to address this point, and are trying to BS your way out of confronting it. > [@](#): > > Weasel schmeasel. I answered your fucking question. No, you answered a question I never asked (are they anti-straight). Of course, your answer to that was wrong too, but the fact is, you are refusing to confront the reality that by your own nonsensical definitions, thousands of gay men are technically anti-gay bigots. > [@](#): > > You’ll defend the democrats even when they’re wrong solely for the fact that you’re worried that any dissention will destroy your candidate. Maybe if you stopped worrying what others might think you can understand what’s wrong. I’ll defend anyone from outrageous slander, lies, smear. It’s fine to criticize Kerry. I disagree with him on the issue of marriage. But his stance isn’t bigoted at all. He’s been nothing but compassionate and a strong advocate for the struggle of gay people to win rights and acceptance in society. He has fought even though it costs him dearly, even when it was unpopular. To call such a man a bigot is disgusting. This isn’t about him winning: this is about decency and honesty and character, of which you have none. Kerry is fighting so that gay people like my son can live in a society that accepts them and gives them and their partners all the rights afforded to others. You are a disgrace to that society, contributing absolutely nothing but invective and hate to that hope. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry that I don’t want to be treated like a dog that gets thrown a bone when it comes to equality. Oh fuck you, at long last. Full civil union benefits for gay couples is not a “bone.” It’s EVERYTHING substantive that gay couples need, minus only a legalism. If I had to vote for Kerry or you, I’d vote Kerry 100% of the time, because Kerry would actually fight to win rights for gay people instead of holding it up for decades out of pure spite. > [@](#): > > Someone insinuates Bricker is a bigot because he supports state by state voting on gay marriage and the ability to amend a state’s constitution to stop it (something that Kerry is supporting). And since Kerrry is apparently untouchable in this forum and above criticism, I can’t call him to task for the same bullshit? Bricker first of all doesn’t have the same position as Kerry, and second of all those positions alone AREN’T sufficient to call him a bigot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-is-an-anti-gay-bigot-and-a-flip-flopper/265926.md?page=5)