# Kerry: Just as bad a student as Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 7, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324 "2005-06-07T17:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![nivlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3bc359/32.png) [@nivlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nivlac)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/21 "2005-06-08T17:11:52Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Do you have a cite for that, nivlac? I agree with you in principle, but have most of our presidents even taken IQ tests? How do we know what their IQs were? “IQ” was not a good choice of words, and I should’ve known better. Instead of “IQ” I should’ve said “some general assessment of intelligence.” Cites? Check out Cecil’s answer. Harding was one of our worse presidents. Since this is IMHO, I’d also count Carter and Nixon as two other smart guys who fumbled their presidencies. And Truman and Reagan as two not super-sharp guys who didn’t do too badly with their time in the WH. I’m not going to say anything about more recent occupants of the WH because that might put this thread into the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/22 "2005-06-08T18:28:42Z")
> [@nivlac](#): > > But since when has intelligence correlated with being a good president? Take a look at Woodrow Wilson. Former university president, scholar, maybe the smartest person other than Jefferson to ever be President. And right before him, William Howard Taft – just about everyone agrees he was a much better Chief Justice than he was President. A few years later, Herbert Hoover - the man who masterminded European relief efforts after World War I. Three people I’d definitely want on my side, but as President they were all pretty flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/23 "2005-06-08T19:04:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [official moderator warning]Do NOT modify the quotes of other posters.[/official moderator warning] A thousand apologies. I was lazy and didn’t take the time to both quote and re-type. > [@Gymnopithys](#): > > 1. A bad student can be a excellent president (Kerry) > 2. A bad student can be a…president (Bush) > > (complete the sentence according to your conviction) > [@Duke of Rat](#): > > 1. A bad student can (almost) be president (Kerry) > 2. A bad student can be president (Bush) > > Not much to argue, really. I’ll be more careful (and less lazy) in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/24 "2005-06-08T19:11:44Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Bush got dinged mainly because he is a poor public speaker, not so much that he’s “not smart”. I wouldn’t exactly call Kerry an inspirational speaker. Even Jon Stewart mocked his monotonous and dreary speech. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/25 "2005-06-08T21:08:00Z")
An interesting subtlety seems to have been lost in the summary of this article. From the [_Boston Globe_:](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student/) > [@](#): > > In 1999, The New Yorker published a transcript indicating that Bush had received a cumulative score of 77 for his first three years at Yale and a roughly similar average under a non-numerical rating system during his senior year. > > Kerry, who graduated two years before Bush, got a cumulative 76 for his four years, according to a transcript that Kerry sent to the Navy when he was applying for officer training school. He received four D’s in his freshman year out of 10 courses, but improved his average in later years. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but that first paragraph essentially says that Bush went through _all four years_ of college with a C average. The second and third paragraphs, however, say that Kerry screwed up his _freshman year,_ then applied himself to improve his grades and raise his four-year average. Bush: Coasts by with “good enough.” Kerry: Actively takes steps to turn things around. That sound about right? ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/26 "2005-06-08T21:15:28Z")
Dunno… “Bush had received a **cumulative score of 77** for his first three years at Yale and **a roughly similar average** under a non-numerical rating system during his senior year.” Sounds like Bush got about a 77 over 4 years. Not too great. “Kerry, who graduated two years before Bush, **got a cumulative 76 for his four years** ” Sounds like Kerry got about a 76 over 4 years. Not too great. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/27 "2005-06-08T21:18:36Z")
Hit submit too soon. "He received four D’s in his freshman year out of 10 courses, but improved his average in later years. " So if Kerry improved in later years to salvage a 76 average, those 4 D’s his freshman year must have been the high spots. Sound about right? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/28 "2005-06-08T22:12:29Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > "He received four D’s in his freshman year out of 10 courses, but improved his average in later years. " > > So if Kerry improved in later years to salvage a 76 average, those 4 D’s his freshman year must have been the high spots. > > Sound about right? I read that as saying Kerry’s average really stunk in his freshman year – probably either a high D or a low C (68-72), then improved his grades in subsequent years to drag the average up. It’d be easier if the papers would just print the darn grades and classes. It’d also be fun to see who took “Political Analysis 453” and who took “Advanced Flower Arrangement”… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/29 "2005-06-08T22:35:10Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Bush: Coasts by with “good enough.” > Kerry: Actively takes steps to turn things around. > > That sound about right? Yeah, it sounds about right. One is able to achieve average grades by coasting, while the other has to struggle. Are you sure you want to portray your candidate in this way, **jungster**? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/30 "2005-06-09T00:12:03Z")
_My_ candidate? What, do I have a deed to the guy or something? He was merely the more competent choice out of a field of two. And yes, I think someone who _puts in an effort_ to fix a screw-up beats someone who doesn’t give a fart any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/31 "2005-06-09T02:02:09Z")
I’d rather have the guy who’s more competent to begin with. The guy struggling to make it has no reserve; the guy coasting at the level the struggler is struggling to achieve has more capacity in reserve and is therefore better equipped to handle additional challenges. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/32 "2005-06-09T03:54:46Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’d rather have the guy who’s more competent to begin with. The guy struggling to make it has no reserve; the guy coasting at the level the struggler is struggling to achieve has more capacity in reserve and is therefore better equipped to handle additional challenges. That is, if the coasting guy ever develops the motivation and experience to do such a thing, which is not what I’d call a guarantee. > [@Liberal](#): > > I wouldn’t exactly call Kerry an inspirational speaker. Even Jon Stewart mocked his monotonous and dreary speech. Nobody’s saying ‘inspirational,’ but he was articulate. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/33 "2005-06-09T04:37:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That is, if the coasting guy ever develops the motivation and experience to do such a thing, which is not what I’d call a guarantee. Well, I would point out that the “coasting guy” in question has managed to become an oil millionaire, a two-time governor of Texas, President of the United States on his first run for national office, and a clear and decisive winner for a second term as POTUS. He has accomplished a great deal more than any of us is ever likely to accomplish. In my book, that speaks pretty highly of both his experience and his motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/34 "2005-06-09T04:43:02Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Well, I would point out that the “coasting guy” in question has managed to become an oil millionaire, a two-time governor of Texas, President of the United States on his first run for national office, and a clear and decisive winner for a second term as POTUS. And the “non-coasting guy” hasn’t done too badly for himself either. I was speaking more generally about people who coast. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/35 "2005-06-09T04:56:10Z")
Fair enough. Perhaps I was reading more into your post than you intended. My apologies, if so. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/36 "2005-06-09T08:03:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody’s saying ‘inspirational,’ but he was articulate. Articulate: “Expressing oneself easily in clear and effective language” — _American Heritage_. Kerry? Um, no. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/37 "2005-06-09T09:10:47Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Well, I would point out that the “coasting guy” in question has managed to become an oil millionaire, a two-time governor of Texas, President of the United States on his first run for national office, and a clear and decisive winner for a second term as POTUS. He has accomplished a great deal more than any of us is ever likely to accomplish. In my book, that speaks pretty highly of both his experience and his motivation. In my view, it’s difficult to single out what a leader of a political party actually accomplishes by himself. How important in the US is it to simply be good on TV and charismatic in person? Do you need to think up policy yourself? How much can your advisers and spin doctors do for you? As for Bush becoming an oil millionaire, how much was this due to dynamic business practice, and how much to family wealth? Here in the UK we have a hereditary Monarchy. Would you say that being King or Queen was an ‘accomplishment’? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/38 "2005-06-09T20:01:26Z")
> [@glee](#): > > As for Bush becoming an oil millionaire, how much was this due to dynamic business practice, and how much to family wealth? Considering Bush bankrupt each of the three oil companies he ran, I think “dynamic business practice” doesn’t factor into it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/39 "2005-06-09T21:14:22Z")
Except that he wasn’t just as bad a student as Bush. He was worse. Bush really is the smart one. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324/40 "2005-06-10T04:49:46Z")
I think both grades disprove the theory that silver spoons make it hard to drink beer in college. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-as-bad-a-student-as-bush/307324.md?page=3)