# Kerry just excommunicated from the Catholic Church? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901 "2004-10-18T21:11:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/1 "2004-10-18T21:11:01Z")
This article, from _Catholic World News_, seems to indicate that Kerry has been excommunicated from the Catholic Church. If true, what affect will excommmunication have on Catholic votes in today’s world? > [@](#): > > **Los Angeles, Oct. 18 ([CWNews.com](http://CWNews.com)) - A consultant to the Vatican has said Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has incurred the penalty of excommunication from the Catholic Church. > The consultant made his statement in a highly unusual letter to Marc Balestrieri, a Los Angeles canon lawyer who formally sued John Kerry in ecclesiastical court for heresy….** > **[Missing Page Redirect](http://cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=32830)** > > A chief provider and curator of Catholic information on the web since 1996. Our editorial voice, always faithful to the teachings of the Church, assists and inspires Catholic clergy and laity. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/2 "2004-10-18T21:17:03Z")
Huh. That article seems to indicate to me that a layman with too much time on his hands is distorting what the church has actually told him, and is making a tortured argument that Kerry is “automatically” excommunicated. Note that it doesn’t contain any direct quotes from anyone in the Church itself responding to the story, and that nowhere in the information the layman received is Kerry specifically excommunicated. It’s wise to give stories like this, just like stories about WMDs in Iraq, a couple days to age, before getting too excited about them :). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/3 "2004-10-18T21:19:09Z")
Bah. > [@](#): > > Father Cole, an expert theologian who studied the matter carefully, responded in the affirmative on both counts. The conclusion that Senator Kerry incurs a _latae sententiae_ excommunication comes from one “learned theologian” - not from any tribunal that has considered the evidence in any particular canon lawsuit. This is like a plaintiff suing a defendant for a defective product and issuing a press release saying that the product has been authoritatively deemed “dangerous.” (By his own expert, that is). No, Senator Kerry is NOT excomunicated. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/4 "2004-10-18T21:25:26Z")
Canon 751 says: > [@](#): > > Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him. So, I guess the question is whether or not Kerry’s stance on abortion represents an “. . .obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith” I’m not a canon lawyer or familiar on exactly what the Catholic church has to say about abortion, so I don’t know to what extent it does. Can. 1398 does say: > [@](#): > > Can. 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/5 "2004-10-18T21:29:50Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > If true, what affect will excommmunication have on Catholic votes in today’s world? It depends. There are catholics and there are catholics. Not many I know live and die by the word of the vatican. There are plenty of catholics I know that don’t play by all the hard rules. Believe me, there are dozens who belong to the church who have premarital sex, are pro-choice, believe in gay-rights, etc. etc. I believe a small percentage are actually stern catholics who go along with every “you must go to church every sunday or go to hell” proclamation the pope sets forth. Besides, didn’t the vatican denounce the war in Iraq? Can’t vote for Bush now either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/6 "2004-10-18T21:33:34Z")
**Tiger** , weren’t you the one constantly mocking me for starting a thread about the lump on Bush’s back, despite the fact that I said over and over and in the OP that I didn’t buy the conspiracy theories on it? Yet here you are, on the basis of evidence no stronger than the “Bush was wired” article in Salon, saying you’ve found an article that “seems to indicate that Kerry has been excommunicated from the Catholic Church.” Mind if I mock you a little for the double standard? Mock, mock, mock. There. I feel better. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/7 "2004-10-18T21:35:50Z")
Why is it that the Catholics don’t denounce pro-death penalty politicians as heretics also? ---
**Author:** ![Scarface\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Scarface\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarface_Z)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/8 "2004-10-18T21:38:50Z")
until the pope says it, i ain’t buying it (happy roman catholic) ---
**Author:** ![Peligro\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ab097/32.png) [@Peligro\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peligro_1)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/9 "2004-10-18T21:42:54Z")
Does this site have anything in common with the Weekly World News? I found this headline on their home page: > [@](#): > > Blair denies conversion to Rome [http://www.cwnews.com/index.cfm](http://www.cwnews.com/index.cfm) :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/10 "2004-10-18T21:45:22Z")
Oh come on… This can’t be a serious attempt to have Catholics believe that John Kerry is “excommunicated”, no? Please tell me there is no Catholic in the US who is actually going to buy this nonsense and then starts believing that voting for Kerry is a mortal sin? What about all the other politicians in this world who are Catholic, uet could actually separate their religon from their political mandate? They must be all “excommunicated”… Poor souls. Maybe I should start mailing a few tens of thousands of copies of Al Qur’an to help them. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/11 "2004-10-18T21:56:40Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Why is it that the Catholics don’t denounce pro-death penalty politicians as heretics also? As far as I know, Catholicism views the death penalty differently than abortion. It says that the death penalty is wrong in practice, while abortion is intrinsically morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/12 "2004-10-18T22:49:39Z")
Hey Catholic Church: excommunicate child molesters, then talk about excommunicatig anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/13 "2004-10-18T23:41:17Z")
/me applauds John Kerry for putting his duty to the nation above his personal religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/14 "2004-10-18T23:42:11Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Oh come on… This can’t be a serious attempt to have Catholics believe that John Kerry is “excommunicated”, no? > > Please tell me there is no Catholic in the US who is actually going to buy this nonsense and then starts believing that voting for Kerry is a mortal sin? > What about all the other politicians in this world who are Catholic, uet could actually separate their religon from their political mandate? Sadly, it is. I stumbled upon a Catholic message board just now, where people not only fully believe this is a reality, but are gleefully cheering it and condemning Kerry. It was a little difficult to actually see the “Christianity” in these supposed Christians. ☹ Interestingly, I also came across the website [votingcatholic.org](http://www.votingcatholic.org), which, without coming right out and endorsing Kerry, seems to have worded their condensed descriptions of Bush and Kerry’s policies in their [“2004 Catholic Voter Guide”](http://www.votingcatholic.org/cvp_guide_1014.pdf) (PDF File!), in such a way as to make it appear very much in favor of Kerry. And in fact, taking their [quiz for undecided voters](http://www.votingcatholic.org/quiz_start.php), every single category tells me I match both the bishops and John Kerry and completely oppose George W. Bush. Fascinating. Seems to me like the Catholic church definitely supports John Kerry over George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/15 "2004-10-19T01:10:32Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Sadly, it is. I stumbled upon a Catholic message board just now, where people not only fully believe this is a reality, but are gleefully cheering it and condemning Kerry. It was a little difficult to actually see the “Christianity” in these supposed Christians. ☹ > > Interestingly, I also came across the website [votingcatholic.org](http://www.votingcatholic.org), which, without coming right out and endorsing Kerry, seems to have worded their condensed descriptions of Bush and Kerry’s policies in their [“2004 Catholic Voter Guide”](http://www.votingcatholic.org/cvp_guide_1014.pdf) (PDF File!), in such a way as to make it appear very much in favor of Kerry. And in fact, taking their [quiz for undecided voters](http://www.votingcatholic.org/quiz_start.php), every single category tells me I match both the bishops and John Kerry and completely oppose George W. Bush. Fascinating. Seems to me like the Catholic church definitely supports John Kerry over George W. Bush. I’ve said many times before that it’s a rough world for the committed Catholic voter. John Kerry’s stance on abortion is abominable; George Bush’s glee for the death penalty is nothing short of a nightmare. Of the two, Kerry’s positions most closely track with the social justice teachings of the Church – the reason that most Catholics historically have been Democrats. I would love to find a viable candidate that believes in the pro-life position on both ends of the spectrum – alas, most everyone that favors pro-life positions for the unborn is inexplicably in favor of killing 'em when they are adults – and vice-versa. In any event, Kerry has evinced no heretical positions; he is not denying any essential truth of the faith. Nor has he, so far as I’m aware, been involved in actually procuring an abortion. Unless there’s some dark secret somewhere, Senator Kerry is not excommunicated, and, assuming he’s in a state of grace, is perfectly eligible to receive the Eucharist. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/16 "2004-10-19T02:45:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ve said many times before that it’s a rough world for the committed Catholic voter. John Kerry’s stance on abortion is abominable; George Bush’s glee for the death penalty is nothing short of a nightmare. Of the two, Kerry’s positions most closely track with the social justice teachings of the Church – the reason that most Catholics historically have been Democrats. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Bush once chastised and excoriated by some people in the press for mocking someone on death row who was soon after executed? Apparently he (Bush) thought it was funny. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/17 "2004-10-19T02:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Election 2004 Reuters/Zogby Daily Tracking Poll: Bush and Kerry, Back in Dead-Heat Race at 45%; **Kerry Now Leads among Catholics;** Bush and Kerry Tied On Personal Favorability, New Reuters/Zogby Poll Reveals [Zogby Poll released today (October 18, 2004)](http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=895) ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/18 "2004-10-19T03:01:21Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Bush once chastised and excoriated by some people in the press for mocking someone on death row who was soon after executed? Apparently he (Bush) thought it was funny. The person Bush mocked was a woman named Karla Faye Tucker, who was on Death Row in Texas at the time. Of course, this is a man who repeatedly talks about how much he values life. Bleepin’ hypocrite. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/19 "2004-10-19T03:12:24Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Bush once chastised and excoriated by some people in the press for mocking someone on death row who was soon after executed? Apparently he (Bush) thought it was funny. Tucker Carlson reported that then-Governor mocked Karla Faye Tucker’s pleas for mercy. Spokesmen for Bush denied the claim. I don’t credit the account, but I don’t discredit it. Frankly, the willingness to kill another human being in cold blood, through a state-sanctioned execution, doesn’t get too much worse no matter what juvenile hijinks do or do not accompany it. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/20 "2004-10-19T03:19:11Z")
Here’s the article from _The New York Times_ adding a little information. > [@](#): > > \*\*…The letter to Mr. Balestrieri, written by another American canon lawyer at the request of a Vatican official, says that “if a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy” and is “automatically excommunicated.” > > The letter, first reported on Friday by Eternal Word Television Network, a Catholic station in Alabama, was written last month after Mr. Balestrieri met with an official at the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. > > In June, Mr. Balestrieri filed a complaint accusing Mr. Kerry of heresy and seeking to have him excommunicated. The complaint was filed with the Archdiocese of Boston, where Mr. Kerry lives. The archdiocese, which declined to comment Monday, can decide whether Mr. Kerry should be excommunicated because he supports abortion rights. > > Mr. Balestrieri said that when he was in Rome, he did not disclose to the Vatican that he had filed the petition against Mr. Kerry. He said he merely asked whether someone who publicly supports abortion rights was guilty of heresy…. > > ….A spokesman for Mr. Kerry, Michael Meehan, would say only: “Kerry’s a Catholic who attends Mass regularly and receives communion. That explains his standing in the church.” > > A spokesman for Mr. Kennedy declined to comment. Mr. Harkin, Ms. Collins and Mr. Cuomo could not be reached.\*\* > **[Letter Supports Anti-Kerry Bid Over Abortion (Published 2004)](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/politics/campaign/letter-supports-antikerry-bid-over-abortion.html)** > > Canon lawyer Marc Balestrieri, who is seeking to have Sen John Kerry excommunicated by Roman Catholic Church because of his support for abortion rights, claims to have letter issued at request of senior Vatican official stating that Catholic's... [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901.md?page=2)