# Kerry just excommunicated from the Catholic Church? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901 "2004-10-18T21:11:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/41 "2004-10-21T04:48:04Z")
Proof of the above: [http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052/1052\_01.asp](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052/1052_01.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/42 "2004-10-21T12:16:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I didn’t know that, this is very educational. So Sen Kerry is “pro-abortion”? Well, learn something every day! You have some cite on that, someplace where Kerry says “Abortions are really swell! Run right out and get one today!” Maybe in the “If your not against it, your for it” sense. His stance is pretty clear; He’s not pro-abortion, but on the other hand he doesn’t want to take anothers right to have one away from them. He stated that he doesn’t want to inject his religious leanings into someone elses life and or decisions. Kind of silly really, since a lot of decisions he’s going to make will be based on faith. 😉 If he’s elected that is. So, to wrap this up, Kerry would not choose abortion, but would like to leave that choice out there for others. A little wishy-washy, but not unlike a majority of the politicians out there. If he, in fact, did vote to keep partial birth abortions legal then I think the Church could excommunicate him on those grounds. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/43 "2004-10-21T12:50:40Z")
Uh oh, looks like we’ve got two heretics on our hands. What is a Catholic voter to do? > [@](#): > > I don’t want to prejudge any official proceedings here, but a quick examination of the president’s professed beliefs create a strong suspicion that he is guilty of a number of heresies condemned by ecumenical councils and leading Catholic theologians over the last two millenia. > > Although he does not appear to belong to any specific religious congregation, Mr. Bush has publicly identified himself as a “born-again Christian” of the Methodist denomination. He is thus presumptively an adherent of the Protestant Heresy, condemned most notably and definitively by the sixteenth-century Council of Trent. If so, Bush has implicitly embraced an array of subordinate heresies, including: > > - Denial of the teaching authority of the Church (the basis, BTW, for questions about Mr. Kerry’s views on abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research). > - Bibliolatry (rejection of Church tradition as amplifying and interpreting scriptural authority) > - Symbolism (rejection of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist) > - Sacrilege (rejection of marriage, holy orders, penance, confirmation and extreme unction as valid Sacraments of the Church) > - Dishonoring the Mother of God (rejection of the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, Assumption and Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary) > - Schism (rejection of papal authority and establishment of a separate ecclesiastical structure) 😃 Further analysis of Bush’s heresy can be found [here](http://www.newdonkey.com/2004/10/kerry-cleared-of-heresy-charge-but.html). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/44 "2004-10-21T13:03:41Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Uh oh, looks like we’ve got two heretics on our hands. What is a Catholic voter to do? > > Further analysis of Bush’s heresy can be found [here](http://www.newdonkey.com/2004/10/kerry-cleared-of-heresy-charge-but.html). Inasmuch as he’s not Catholic, excommunicating Mr. Bush is meaningless. And he’s already not eligible to receive the Eucharist. So, problem solved! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/45 "2004-10-21T13:15:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, problem solved! 😃 Yeah, but do you really want to be voting for a heretic? 😉 Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/46 "2004-10-21T15:17:32Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Further analysis of Bush’s heresy can be found [here](http://www.newdonkey.com/2004/10/kerry-cleared-of-heresy-charge-but.html). Actually, isn’t it current Catholic belief that “The child of a heretic is not a heretic.”? In other words, the only people who can be guilty of heresy are those Catholics who choose to reject some fundamental tenent of Catholicism. Their children, on the other hand, are just ignorant of Catholic teachings, and so they’re not at fault for that ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/47 "2004-10-21T15:20:51Z")
While Bush has often been compared to a child, he is, chronologically speaking, an adult, and presumably also an adult with some knowledge of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/48 "2004-10-21T15:21:11Z")
Ahem. [This just in](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/20/politics/campaign/20catholic.html?pagewanted=all). > [@](#): > > Vatican Says Kerry Stance on Abortion Is Not Heresy ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/49 "2004-10-21T16:19:05Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > While Bush has often been compared to a child, he is, chronologically speaking, an adult, and presumably also an adult with some knowledge of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. Right, obviously, but he was never Catholic, and therefore couldn’t have turned away from Catholicism. If you look at the papal bull “Unitatus Redintegratio”, which is, I think, still operative policy on this issue, you’ll see it says (bolding mine, footnotes removed): > [@](#): > > Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. **The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation** , and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/50 "2004-10-21T16:26:01Z")
Ditto to what has been said earlier. Finidng a politican who agrees with the entire spectrum of RCC social teaching is a fruitless task. [http://www.seamless-garment.org/index.shtml](http://www.seamless-garment.org/index.shtml) Go [here](http://go.sojo.net/campaign/takebackourfaith) and see how few candidates would meet the criteria 😉 Hell just pick the last one… > [@](#): > > We believe that a consistent ethic of human life is a religious issue. Do the candidates’ positions on abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, weapons of mass destruction, HIV/AIDS-and other pandemics-and genocide around the world obey the biblical injunction to choose life? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/51 "2004-10-21T16:52:35Z")
For those here who understand Catholic procedures — Is it true that there is no _official_ Vatican position shown in the Vatican’s responses? If the response IS a position, then I would suppose that Balestrieri’s pending case asking that Kerry and the others be excommunicated, for all real purposes has ended — or is this still an open question? From _Catholic News Service_ - > [@](#): > > \*\*…One Vatican official contacted by CNS said no church official had seriously approached the point of declaring Kerry a heretic. > > “No, Kerry is not a heretic,” he said. > > “There are three distinct questions involved” in the current U.S. discussion about support for legalized abortion and the worthiness of Catholic politicians and voters to receive Communion, he said. > > The three questions, he said, are: “Is Kerry a heretic? Is Kerry an ‘obstinate sinner’ because of his support for legalized abortion? Can a Catholic vote for Kerry?” > > Even if one answered “yes” to the second question, he said, it would not mean the senator is a heretic, nor would it oblige Catholic voters in all situations to vote against him. > > The questions Balestrieri wrote in Latin and sent to the congregation asked whether the church’s condemnation of abortion is a matter of Catholic faith and dogma for which opposition would constitute heresy. > > When he wrote to the congregation, Balestrieri did not identify himself as the head of De Fide, he did not mention Kerry or politicians in general and he said he did not inform the congregation that he was trying to formally sue Kerry for heresy in the Archdiocese of Boston….\*\* [http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405749.htm](http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405749.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/52 "2004-10-21T17:09:07Z")
But note the ‘points’ made in this guy’s article — [http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article\_5476.shtml](http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_5476.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/53 "2004-10-21T17:54:08Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Right, obviously, but he was never Catholic, and therefore couldn’t have turned away from Catholicism. If you look at the papal bull “Unitatus Redintegratio”, which is, I think, still operative policy on this issue, you’ll see it says (bolding mine, footnotes removed): Right, but does it say that “children” includes “adults”? I’d be happy to concede the point if there is some indication that any adult Christian who was born outside the Catholic faith is outside the boundaries of what can be labeled heresy? Since the doctrine you’re quoting appears to depend upon the rationale that children outside the faith don’t know any better, I don’t see how that would exclude an adult who has learned of the Catholic Church’s teachings and chosen to reject them. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/54 "2004-10-21T18:29:53Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Since the doctrine you’re quoting appears to depend upon the rationale that children outside the faith don’t know any better, I don’t see how that would exclude an adult who has learned of the Catholic Church’s teachings and chosen to reject them. That document is the basis of the Catholic ecumenical movement, and it seems to include adults. In fact, if you look at what I quoted "The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ… ", it talks about them growing up believing in Christ, so we’re talking about adults here. And if you look on at the rest of the paragraph, it says: > [@](#): > > and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/55 "2004-10-21T18:46:38Z")
Considering the circumstances as I understand them, those Catholics who continue to deny the wrongness of abortion after being warned, may be considered “obstinate sinners” (see quote in post 51 from “one Vatican official”) IF that is the case, how would this classification square with canon 915 – > [@](#): > > **Can. 915 Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion.** [http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c0840-1165.htm#par1907](http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c0840-1165.htm#par1907) Anyone have an opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/56 "2004-10-21T20:21:21Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Anyone have an opinion? [rul=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/20/politics/campaign/20catholic.html?pagewanted=all]yes and [Absolutely](http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405680.htm) > [@](#): > > VATICAN CITY (CNS) – When more than 1,000 of Italy’s most politically active Catholics met in early October, Pope John Paul II sent them a message urging greater church influence on such issues as the family, the media, economic justice and globalization. > > Reflecting the political priorities of the church in Italy, the pope did not mention abortion. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/57 "2004-10-21T20:30:50Z")
Also, **Tiger** , I’m not sure which specific grave sin you believe Kerry is obstinately committing. May I presume that what constitutes a grave sin in Italy is the same thing as what constitutes a grave sin in the US, and that if the Vatican itself doesn’t prevent Italian politicians from receiving communion, that’s a good sign that those Italian politicians aren’t so prevented by canon 915? This would probably be a good time to sheepishly admit you were duped by an overeager and deceitful activist. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/58 "2004-10-21T20:38:09Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > …This would probably be a good time to sheepishly admit you were duped by an overeager and deceitful activist. > > Daniel What are you talking about? And what have you been talking about for most of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/59 "2004-10-21T20:43:11Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > What are you talking about? And what have you been talking about for most of this thread? Uh, the thread title and the OP? The thread title is based on one activist’s deceit, since repudiated by the church. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901/60 "2004-10-21T20:49:52Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Uh, the thread title and the OP? The thread title is based on one activist’s deceit, since repudiated by the church. > > Daniel Well I suggest you look at 'em oncce again. The title has a question mark and the OP says “seems.” As in \* This article, from Catholic World News, seems to indicate that Kerry has been excommunicated from the Catholic Church. If true, what affect will excommmunication have on Catholic votes in today’s world?\* I suspect you’re still sore about the Bush humpback thread – as indicated in your ssecond post in this one — > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Tiger** , weren’t you the one constantly mocking me for starting a thread about the lump on Bush’s back… And if this is it – I wasn’t “mocking” you Daniel — I was having fun with the idea of Bush’s hump feeding him answers – it wasn’t about you. Relax. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-just-excommunicated-from-the-catholic-church/269901.md?page=4)