# Kerry picks Edwards as VP. That's it, I'm not voting. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 6, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781 "2004-07-06T13:17:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/81 "2004-07-06T21:08:52Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > I think the best way to conceive of it–and I’m paraphrasing this from an article on voting I read in _Discover_ a few years ago–is that a vote’s value depends on its marginal chance of deciding the election. That means that you’re not wasting much of anything by voting for Nader in Massachusetts, but you _are_ wasting something rather more valuable by voting for Nader in a state where the race is close, such as in Florida 2000. Of course, this formulation still relies on a conception of voting that many people might not share. It works if your only goal is to change the course of the current election, but if you have a longer-term objective (such as, for example, forcing the Deomcrats to shift back to the left), then it is not necessarily a wasted vote, even if you later express concern that your vote might have helped a Republican win the White House. You rely on a rather economic view of a vote’s value, and even incorporate marginal analysis, arguing that “a vote’s value depends on its marginal chance of deciding the election.” But if you’re going to offer such an economic formulation, then you also need to acknowledge that people view issues of “value” and “waste” very subjectively, and that arriving at objective values in any system is a difficult thing to do. While i might not think that, for example, an Apple computer is “worth” the extra cost (over a similar PC), others feel differently. While _you_ might feel that a vote for Nader in Florida is a wasted vote, someone with a different measuring stick might not agree. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/82 "2004-07-06T21:13:28Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > For what? He’s been very public about his cases, having even written about 4 specific ones in a book called, ironically, _Four Trials_. What is there to investigate? My apologies, I should have made myself more clear. I meant that I needed to some more investigation on him to make a better decision on him as a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/83 "2004-07-06T21:30:37Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > My apologies, I should have made myself more clear. I meant that I needed to some more investigation on him to make a better decision on him as a candidate. \ ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/84 "2004-07-06T21:36:40Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Jon, unfortunately, I didn’t see Democrats standing up for our civil liberties or standing against the Republican war-mongers when it was most important. I realize that they were playing to their constituents, but I’m pretty disappointed with the lack of spine my party has had for the last 4 years. > > Only now, after the fact,have several stood in opposition to the PATRIOT act and the wars we’ve involved ourselves in. > > Sam At the risk of sounding like a Democratic Party operative … So, now’s the time we can help them find their collective spine. With the public’s backing through word-of-mouth, financial support from those who can afford it and campaigning, formal and informal, Democratic officials will start to get the idea that they can vote their conscience and not piss off their constituents. I know that some of them are late to come to the party in terms of the Patriot Act and other issues (and others have yet to come around), but they’ve been cowed into thinking that voting any other way would mean political suicide. So they shut up and took cover, hoping the last four years would pass with as little damage as possible. What we need to do now as Democrats, liberals and independents, is vote for those candidates we suspect will see us prodding them into action and stand up and say, “Wait just a fucking minute; that’s my country you’re shitting on.” It’s too bad more elected officials don’t have the courage to stand independently, but if enough of us get up off our asses and say “This way,” our leaders will follow. Those that don’t shouldn’t get our votes. I know Bush will only listen to his base of conservative, wealthy elite. I’m more optimistic that Kerry (and Edwards, now) will listen to us and follow. I’m JonScribe, and I paid for this ad. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/85 "2004-07-06T21:49:16Z")
**Hear, hear** JonScribe. I will be voting for my party come November, and I hope maybe taking the white house from the Repubs will give some of my party members their, umm… **members** back. :queue Beavis and Butthead act: uhhh he said ‘member’ uhhuhuuhuh. Sam ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/86 "2004-07-06T22:35:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Of course, this formulation still relies on a conception of voting that many people might not share. It works if your only goal is to change the course of the current election, but if you have a longer-term objective (such as, for example, forcing the Deomcrats to shift back to the left), then it is not necessarily a wasted vote, even if you later express concern that your vote might have helped a Republican win the White House. Okay, fair enough. But if that’s how you value of your vote, you simply define its value by reference to its marginal chance of effecting the desired long-term change. Of course, you also have to offset that long-term value by the amount of any short-term _cost_ of the vote–e.g., thanks to the Nader vote, we’ve got fucking Bush-Cheney-Rove running the country. From previous discussions of this subject, I don’t see too many unrepentant Nader voters who are willing to own up to their responsibility for the bastards currently in office and the terrible policies the bastards have implemented. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/87 "2004-07-06T22:50:00Z")
And you probably also ought to consider the efficacy of such long-term voting strategies. That is, if I’m the Democratic Party and you fuck me over for the sake of sending a message that I should be more like you, I am not real likely to accede to your wishes. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/88 "2004-07-06T22:51:17Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Okay, fair enough. But if that’s how you value of your vote, you simply define its value by reference to its marginal chance of effecting the desired long-term change. Of course, you also have to offset that long-term value by the amount of any short-term _cost_ of the vote–e.g., thanks to the Nader vote, we’ve got fucking Bush-Cheney-Rove running the country. From previous discussions of this subject, I don’t see too many unrepentant Nader voters who are willing to own up to their responsibility for the bastards currently in office and the terrible policies the bastards have implemented. Well, i’m not even allowed to vote in American elections, but one thing that’s really amazed me since 2000 is the vitriol directed at Nader voters. Sure, in statistical terms it is relatively easy to see that if, say, even half of Nader voters had voted for Gore instead, we’d have someone different in the White House right now. That’s pretty much beyond question. But what surprises me is not the fact that people point this out, but that they actually _blame_ Nader voters for keeping the Democrat out of the White House. A few things get ignored in all this mudslinging. 1. No third party candidate is taking away votes that _belong_ to another party. Votes belong to those who choose to use them, and there’s no rule whereby they must be cast for the Dems or the GOP. 2. Every time someone slams Nader, that person also seems willing to overlook the sheer ineptitude of Gore’s campaign. Hell, if Gore had been able to tell his ass from a hole in the ground, even a 5% vote for Nader shouldn’t have been a problem. 3. Dems are happy to rain abuse on voters who deserted the Democrats for the Greens, but voters who deserted the Democrats for the Republicans get a free pass. Is this simply because they chose to vote for one of the two main parties? 4. There is none of the same vitriol reserved for those who are too lazy or apathetic to get off their asses and vote at all. Again, if a few more nominally-Democratic voters had actually gone to the polls, the Nader vote would not have been an issue. It seems to me that slamming Nader has been a convenient shibboleth for Democrats who are unwilling to examine their party’s failings. And of course, if you had instant runoff voting in America, this wouldn’t even be an issue. Under the current first-past-the-post scenario, we have the somewhat paradoxical suituation whereby the more candidates you have, the less likely it is that the result will actually reflect the will of the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/89 "2004-07-06T22:53:17Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > And you probably also ought to consider the efficacy of such long-term voting strategies. That is, if I’m the Democratic Party and you fuck me over for the sake of sending a message that I should be more like you, I am not real likely to accede to your wishes. So? That’s effectively what every politician decides in every campaign–which potential constituents should be mollified, and which should be ignored for the sake of the bigger picture. It’s a simple cost-benefit analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/90 "2004-07-06T23:58:11Z")
> [@Optihut](#): > > Hence, I cannot blame people who just give up on the whole farce we call voting and stay home. In my book not voting doesn’t make someone an asshole - if all the options are crap, then obviously the best choice is to not choose crap. Why would that be? It’s not as though you get to avoid the crap by not choosing - you’re gonna find yourself wallowing in it either way. Besides, no one ever manages to come up with a justification for their oh-so-trendy disgust with both parties (besides the dedicated third-party voters). So you’re not in love with Kerry. What are you people in love with, besides anything that comes across as alternative? What exactly makes the major parties identical? Sure, both parties are a little to the right of yours truly, but I still don’t see many policy issues that are identical. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/91 "2004-07-07T00:04:26Z")
I have mixed feelings about Nader voters. On one hand I completely understand that they have the right to vote for whomever they feel would be the best President. On the other hand I wish they would be more pragmatic with their votes. Principles are great, but sometimes, IMHO, the lesser of two evils, especially when so many people are affected, is more important. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/92 "2004-07-07T00:14:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But what surprises me is not the fact that people point this out, but that they actually _blame_ Nader voters for keeping the Democrat out of the White House. Considering that their votes are both the cause in fact and proximate cause of the current s.o.b.‘s ending up in charge and happily enacting their fucked up agenda, you’re damn right I blame Nader voters for this mess. They’re hardly the only ones who are responsible, of course–I’m lookin’ at _you_ O’Connor and Kennedy–but they sure as hell were the straw that broke the camel’s back. > [@](#): > > 1. No third party candidate is taking away votes that _belong_ to another party. Votes belong to those who choose to use them, and there’s no rule whereby they must be cast for the Dems or the GOP. Certainly, the votes “belong” to the voters who cast them. But the moral responsibility for casting those votes also “belongs” to those voters. > [@](#): > > 1. Every time someone slams Nader, that person also seems willing to overlook the sheer ineptitude of Gore’s campaign. Hell, if Gore had been able to tell his ass from a hole in the ground, even a 5% vote for Nader shouldn’t have been a problem. Even assuming that Gore ran an inept campaign–a matter of some debatability, I’m sure–that still doesn’t excuse Nader voters from the moral consequences of their protest votes. > [@](#): > > 1. Dems are happy to rain abuse on voters who deserted the Democrats for the Greens, but voters who deserted the Democrats for the Republicans get a free pass. Is this simply because they chose to vote for one of the two main parties? It’s harder to fault those voters, who at least got what they wanted: George W. Bush. Nader voters, on the other hand, decided they had to burn the village with the hope that maybe one day the workers of the world really would unite and thereby save the village. Pretty darn stupid, if you ask me. > [@](#): > > 1. There is none of the same vitriol reserved for those who are too lazy or apathetic to get off their asses and vote at all. Again, if a few more nominally-Democratic voters had actually gone to the polls, the Nader vote would not have been an issue. Why should I save “the same vitriol” for those who are merely lazy and unmotivated, as opposed to those who affirmatively chose and acted upon a morally reprehensible course of action? > [@](#): > > It seems to me that slamming Nader has been a convenient shibboleth for Democrats who are unwilling to examine their party’s failings. I suspect that what you really mean by “unwilling to examine their party’s failings” is “unwilling to embrace the far-left agenda espoused by the Green Party and its hangers-on.” But in case you meant your statement literally, allow me to rebut your perception with the following GD classic: [Memo to Democrats: You Can’t Beat Something With Nothing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=142909). ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/93 "2004-07-07T00:24:32Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Why should I save “the same vitriol” for those who are merely lazy and unmotivated, as opposed to those who affirmatively chose and acted upon a morally reprehensible course of action? “Morally reprehensible” because they voted for the person they felt best represented their interests? I guess i’m just going to have to accept your irrationality on this issue as something that i don’t understand and can’t change. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/94 "2004-07-07T00:30:16Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > “Morally reprehensible” because they voted for the person they felt best represented their interests? While knowing full well that a possible result of their vote was the election of a person whose policies are completely and unambiguously opposed to their own. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/95 "2004-07-07T00:33:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I know Bush will only listen to his base of conservative, wealthy elite. GWB: Nice crowd we have here tonight. The haves and the have mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/96 "2004-07-07T00:50:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Sure, in statistical terms it is relatively easy to see that if, say, even half of Nader voters had voted for Gore instead, we’d have someone different in the White House right now. That’s pretty much beyond question. Just to nitpick/clarify. The truth is much more painful and teeth-gnashing than 50%. Fewer than one in one-hundred, actually. There were 97,488 Nader voters in Florida, while Bush beat Gore by 537 votes. If somewhat less than 1% had voted for Gore, our country would be a far far better place right now. Of course, if we had also not had the Jews for Buchanan and the Homonym Felons… ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/97 "2004-07-07T00:51:08Z")
> [@Optihut](#): > > In my book not voting doesn’t make someone an asshole - if all the options are crap, then obviously the best choice is to not choose crap. I read from a very different book. IMO the best option, nay, obligation, when faced with crap is to choose the least crappy. Look, there will _never_ be a candidate of any party who completely satisfies all members of even that party. Politics _is_ the art of compromise, after all. I can’t think of single candidate from all the time I’ve been voting who’s jibed completely with my beliefs. So I take the closest one who has the best chance of actually winnning the office. To not vote at all, write in someone frivolous or vote for an obvious non-starter negates that vote. I’m not a party animal and neither Kerry nor Edwards fit my template exactly. That doesn’t matter. IMO Bush/Cheney have been so direly, dangerously incompetent–not to mention disgraces to actual conservative values–I honestly think Kerry/Edwards _must_ be better. Compromising on philosophical points of disagreement is chump change in light of Bush/Cheney’s abysmal track record these past four years. Obviously YMMV, but I’ll choose less-than-ideal over flat-out incompetent any day, but especially on election day. Veb ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/98 "2004-07-07T01:20:42Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Would you accept the argument if it was changed to “voting for a 3rd party candidate in a battleground state is a wasted vote”? No. Reckless maybe but certainly not wasted. Haj ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/99 "2004-07-07T03:05:37Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Ignorance-fighting time already, I see:Six years as a United States Senator. > > Edwards was first elected to the Senate in 1998, a non-presidential election year in which there were no coattails to be ridden. Moreover, he’s hardly a “professional office runner,” since he’s only ever held one office (Senate, one term) and run for one other (President, of course). > > Edwards was sworn in as a senator in January 1999. He didn’t form a presidential exploratory committee until [January 2003](http://www.4president.org/speeches/johnedwards2004pressrelease.htm). He did not announce he was actually running until an appearance on _The Daily Show with John Stewart_ on September 15, 2003. I’m not speaking out against John Edwards. Frankly the only visceral thing about him that had bothered me was when he was being touted as Jonothan Edwards, which happens to be the name of a historical religious figure - one I still find a little frightening. I know that John Edwards has nothing to do with that, but it’s still an emotional reaction I have to deal with. Having said that, he was a candidate in 2000 for the presidential nomination, he officially put himself into the ring or was just being touted by others. So, I have to say on this one point, **Minty** that I think you’re wrong. I don’t disagree with any of your other points, however. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781/100 "2004-07-07T03:11:44Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Having said that, he was a candidate in 2000 for the presidential nomination, **WHETHER** > [@](#): > > he officially put himself intothe ring or was just being touted by others. And I previewed. Ouch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-picks-edwards-as-vp-thats-it-im-not-voting/253781.md?page=6)