# Kerry Shooting Himself in the Foot Already. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063 "2004-08-03T02:01:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/21 "2004-08-03T03:09:05Z")
Y’know, Sam, there are times when being right does not help the cause: > [@](#): > > John Kerry used his third Purple Heart to apply for relief. . . Gee, three Purple Hearts in four months vs a cushy job in the ANG, while not even bothering to show up for the last year. You are not on much more solid ground with > [@](#): > > The Democrats have accused him of lying, . . . in that GWB actually has been shown to have lied. (I suspect that Kerry can be shown to have lied on some topics, as well, but pretending that the evidence that Bush has lied are simply “accusations” from “Democrats” is, at best, disingenuous.) ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/22 "2004-08-03T03:09:32Z")
Yes, this board engages in non-stop, frequently irrational Bush-bashing. Yes, Kerry probably isn’t talking about his policy because he either doesn’t have one (that’s different then Bush’s) or he doesn’t want to alienate any voters. Even so, Kerry still gets my vote so long has he doesn’t come out and say “My plan for reducing terrorism is to invade countries that don’t really have anything to do with terrorism.” We already know that’s what Bush’s plan is, so we don’t have anything to loose by giving Kerry a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/23 "2004-08-03T03:09:56Z")
I remember the '68 election…or more importantly, the campaign. It was the defining moment that made me a Republican. Prior to that I was pretty indifferent to politics, and although I didn’t like Johnson or his programs, I did like Kennedy a lot. But I did notice that once Johnson announced that he wasn’t going to run, and Nixon announced he had plan to extricate us from the war while still allowing South Vietnam to defend itself and maintain its autonomy, Humphrey and all his cohorts in Congress immediately did a 180 and began to decry the war in Vietnam and claim it was a mistake, that we never should have been there in the first place, our involvement was a travesty, yadda, yadda, yadda. Yet these very same people not three weeks before, when they thought Johnson was going to run, were going on and on about what a just war it was, the noble reasons we were there, why we couldn’t pull out, etc., etc. And again, this was over a period of just _three weeks_, so their flip-flops were ridiculously obvious! I thought to myself, “Man, these guys don’t stand for anything. The only thing they’re interested in is opposing the Republicans.” And this is a theme I’ve seen played out again and again in the years since. It has always seemed to me that Republicans seem guided by an innate sense of right and wrong, and by their core moral beliefs, and they will hold to these beliefs even to their politcal detrement. Democrats on the other hand (politicians, that is) don’t seem to be guided by such moral convictions. They seem to try to govern to win last night’s polls and next years election. Hence you get Democrat politicians who say things like “I didn’t have sex with her, she had sex with me” (dishonesty, lack of moral conviction), or “I voted for it before I voted against it” (flip-flops). Anyway, that is the genesis of my Republicanism. I will say that some good things have come about through liberal influence in this country, with the lessening of racism and women’s rights at the top of the list. I don’t think either party is totally in the right or totally in the wrong. Good (and bad) can come out of either party. But in most ways, Republicans are more in line with my way of thinking than Democrats, and I believe I can trust that a Republican will do what I thought he’d do (and what I would want him to do) when I voted for him. I don’t believe those who vote for Democrats have the same luxury. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/24 "2004-08-03T03:16:58Z")
Speaking of less than honest tactics: > [@Sam Stone](#): > > And of course, his super-secret plan is totally unusable by a mere Senator, because in the last twenty years he hasn’t so much as mentioned a way to solve the terrorism problem. This is supposed to be a response to the statement that Kerry knows what to do in Iraq? Iraq had nothing to do with world terrorism until Bush opened its borders (that Hussein had kept shut) to any random terrorist with a ticket to Jordan, Syria, Iran, Kuwait, or Saudi Arabia and a few bucks to buy a trip into Baghdad or Fajullah. If Kerry had proclaimed “I know what to do to stop terrorism,” you’d have a point, but the _Iraq situation_ did not exist until Bush created it last year. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/25 "2004-08-03T03:17:23Z")
shhhhh. Don’t tell all the people on the USS Gridley that they didn’t earn that Vietnam service medal. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/26 "2004-08-03T03:19:18Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **C K Dexter Haven** said: > Are we living on the same planet? This board is full of 24/7 Bush bashing. The Democrats have accused him of lying, Joe Wilson has been on a rampage. Michael Moore has a movie out accusing Bush of being in bed with the Bin Ladens. There are tons of anti-bush books and movies out or coming out. [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) and George Soros have spent over a hundred million dollars attacking Bush. > > The amount of vitriol aimed at Kerry so far in this campaign is but a tiny fraction of the stuff being hurled at Bush. This board != the entire population of the US. As for the attacks at Bush, most of them, he brought upon himself. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/27 "2004-08-03T03:26:25Z")
So… Anyone think giving nuclear fuel to Iran is a really good idea? Or even offering it to ‘call their bluff’? Is this a bluff that needs to be called? What happens if they accept? Let’s hear the defense. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/28 "2004-08-03T03:35:28Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Exactly like Nixon in '68. And what a great plan that was, huh? > > You can get away with that crap once. Nixon did. But are people going to fall for that again? The big difference is, this year, Kerry will win the election, and you will be left with nothing to do but gnash your teeth and rend your clothing. Prepare yourself for four years of bitter tears. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/29 "2004-08-03T03:36:24Z")
**C K Dexter Haven** : full of absolute lies and bull-shit… all of it anti-Kerry. **Sam Stone** : Are we living on the same planet? This board is full of 24/7 Bush bashing. Question is, how much of it has been lies? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/30 "2004-08-03T03:37:30Z")
I don’t necessarily supplying nuclear fuel to Iran is a good idea. I think _offering_ to supply nuclear fuel to Iran might be a very good idea indeed. Iran is currently claiming entire innocence as regards weapon intentions. Our crack intelligence services asssure us this is not so. For reasons that are puzzling and obscure, other nations don’t share our keen admiration for our intelligence sources. OK, we say, you say you don’t want to make bad-ass nuke fuel, you just want good nuke fuel, the kind you can’t make into bombs. Howzabout this? We sell it to you at cost, and you don’t have to spend the money to build the reactors and stuff…IF that’s all you really want to do, then we’ll make it easy on you. IF. Now, clearly, if they spurn such a generous offer, it goes a long way to proving that their intentions are not as pure as they purport, no? I suspect this is what Kerry means by calling their bluff. Course, now, he’s a flip-flopper, doesn’t have the gravity and bearing to pull this stuff off, not like when ol’ GeeDubya says hes going to get that second UN vote _no matter what_, gonna call their bluff, gonna “see all the cards”. When he subsequently tucked his tail and ran, he did it like a Leader… ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/31 "2004-08-03T03:38:20Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So… > > Anyone think giving nuclear fuel to Iran is a really good idea? > > Or even offering it to ‘call their bluff’? Is this a bluff that needs to be called? What happens if they accept? > > Let’s hear the defense. This is the full answer from the [link](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5570503/site/newsweek/) you provided in the OP: > [@](#): > > John Kerry regards an Iran as a state sponsor of terrorism armed with nuclear weapons as unacceptable. He has a multiple-part strategy that is much more realistic than the Bush administration’s. One is to rejoin and work through the international legal framework on arms control. That will give greater force to the major powers if they have to deal with violators. Secondly, he has laid out, I think in the most comprehensive way in modern memory, a program to secure nuclear materials around the world—particularly in the former Soviet Union but also in the places where research reactors have existed that could be susceptible to proliferation. The point is to try to prevent Iran from ever getting this material surreptitiously. Thirdly, he has proposed that rather than letting the British, the French and the Germans do this themselves, that we together call the bluff of the Iranian government, which claims that its only need is energy. And we say to them: “Fine, we will provide you the fuel that you need if Russia fails to provide it.” Participating in such a diplomatic initiative makes it more likely to succeed. Could you point out where it says Kerry’s going to give _nuclear fuel_ to Iran? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/32 "2004-08-03T03:42:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **NurseCarmen** said: > > Y’know, before you go fucking yelling at someone to get a fucking clue, you might want to fucking make sure you know what you’re fucking talking about. > > John Kerry signed up in 1966. He was in training until 1967, and then reported to the USS Gridley as a watch officer. The Gridley spent its time in the Philippines, New Zealand, and for a short time it was a support ship in the Gulf of Tonkin. > > Kerry returned to the states in 1968, at which point he applied for Swift Boat training. He reported for duty in Vietnam on November 17, 1968. On March 17, 1969, EXACTLY FOUR MONTHS AFTER HE FUCKING GOT TO FUCKING VIET FUCKING NAM, John Kerry used his third Purple Heart to apply for relief from combat duty, which was granted. He left Vietnam shortly thereafter. > > Fuck. Which is still four months longer than Bush was ever there, and it’s only the worst kind of carping sour grapes that would cause somebody to disparage four months of highly decorated, highly valorous service under fire. Tell me, in your opinion, how long does somebody have to be in combat before it becomes worthy of praise? All this conservative sneering at John Kerry’s war record really just makes the right wing sound completely insincere and hypocritical when they make grandstanding, tearful shows of support for the troops in Iraq. Should we scrutinize all their Purple Hearts too? Should we belittle anyone who only spent four months in the field? You either respect military service or you don’t. Respect for combat veterans should not be contingent on their party affiliation. If you’re going to sneer at Kerry’s service (which you did, so don’t even try to protest) then don’t pretend you respect the troops in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/33 "2004-08-03T03:54:53Z")
Of course he’s talking about nuclear fuel. There’s no need to ship oil to Iran, since they are a huge exporter of oil. Here’s a cite from [New Democrats Online](http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252759) which suggests that Kerry doesn’t just think this is a bluff-call - he’s serious about it: > [@](#): > > Kerry has called for repealing the loophole in international nonproliferation treaties that allows countries to obtain and process nuclear materials for “peaceful energy uses.” That’s the guise under which North Korea has created its nuclear weapons program, and the excuse Iran is using to explain its equally aggressive drive to obtain nuclear materials and build enrichment and reprocessing plants. Kerry wants to offer such states and others a simple deal: We will give you the nuclear fuel you need for energy use so long as you agree to let us recapture the spent fuel so it cannot be redirected to a secret weapons program. The flaw with this line of thinking is the assumption that the only thing allowing North Korea and Iran to develop fissionable materials is a ‘loophole’ in the law. Like Iran and North Korea haven’t been violating non-proliferation laws and breaking U.N. seals willy-nilly. Just close that loophole in the paperwork, and the world will be safe! In the meantime, now that the loophole is closed, we’ll provide their nuclear fuel for them, as long as they promise, cross-their-hearts to give back the bomb material they’ll have in their possession at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/34 "2004-08-03T04:01:43Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I thought to myself, “Man, these guys don’t stand for anything. The only thing they’re interested in is opposing the Republicans.” And this is a theme I’ve seen played out again and again in the years since. Refusing to change course in the face of mounting evidence that you are wrong is a virtue? God, at least Democrats had the courage to disown their own incumbent and try something different. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/35 "2004-08-03T04:02:22Z")
That sounds like a good plan to me. I’m all for it. I don’t the US has any moral authority to dicate who can and can’t have nuclear capability anyway. especally since we’re the only country which has ever proven that we _can’t_ be trusted with the bomb. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/36 "2004-08-03T04:03:06Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > God, at least Democrats had the courage to disown their own incumbent and try something different. What?? When? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/37 "2004-08-03T04:05:53Z")
> [@](#): > > **Sam** : What an idiot. How can anyone take seriously a candidate who refuses to tell you what he’d do before the election, but trusts you to believe that he’s got a secret plan all worked out? In the Presidential campaign in 2000, then candidate Bush, in the televised debates, stated that it is the “Commander-in-Chief who clearly sets the mission, **and the mission is to fight and win war, and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place.** ” (bold type added) At least his plan wasn’t secret, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/38 "2004-08-03T04:07:30Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > What?? When? LBJ '68 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/39 "2004-08-03T04:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Which is still four months longer than Bush was ever there, and it’s only the worst kind of carping sour grapes that would cause somebody to disparage four months of highly decorated, highly valorous service under fire. Tell me, in your opinion, how long does somebody have to be in combat before it becomes worthy of praise? I disparaged nothing. I made a simple statement - Kerry was in-country for four months before using his third purple heart to get a ticket home. I woulda done the same thing, and there’s nothing wrong with it. However, four months of combat experience is simply not enough to base an entire presidential campaign on, and that’s what Kerry is attempting to do. He keeps going on about how much he learned in combat, how it would make him a better commander in chief, how good his judgement is because of it, etc. But it’s FOUR MONTHS. His service is laudible, but he’s trying to turn a tour as a junior officer into his being akin to Eisenhower. I also find his constant trumpeting of his personal heroism to be unseemly. Don’t you? They even talked about bringing a Swift Boat into the convention center, fer crissake. John McCain spent YEARS in a Vietnam shithole, and he REFUSED to leave the country even when the Viet Cong offered it because he wouldn’t leave without his men, and he never made such a deal out of his service. Bob Kerry has a goddamn Medal of Honor and was a Navy Seal, and I don’t hear him trumpeting it or saluting the cameras and ‘reporting for duty’. Democratic Senator Inhofe has a Medal of Honor, and most people probably don’t even know. John Kerry’s constant wrapping of himself in his combat ribbons is creepy and undignified. In any event, what I responded to was **NurseCarmen** , spittle-flinging, profanity laden rant at me for my apparent ignorance in not knowing that, and I quote "Kerry was in the Vietnamese theater from 66 to 69. " Which he wasn’t. He was actually in theater for four months, plus a short period of time in a non-combatant role on the Gridley. Less than six months in total, with four of it actually spent “in-country”. There’s nothing wrong with his service - there’s something wrong with **NurseCarmen** ’s nasty and pitifully hypocritical attack on me. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/40 "2004-08-03T04:13:22Z")
> [@](#): > > In the Presidential campaign in 2000, then candidate Bush, in the televised debates, stated that it is the “Commander-in-Chief who clearly sets the mission, and the mission is to fight and win war, and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place.” (bold type added) > > At least his plan wasn’t secret, huh? No, it was a paraphrasing of Vegetius: “Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.” Rough translation: “If you seek peace, prepare yourself for war.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063.md?page=3)