# Kerry Shooting Himself in the Foot Already. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063 "2004-08-03T02:01:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/141 "2004-08-04T17:04:14Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > > [@RT](#): > > > > I forgot to raise the issue of Bush & Co. receiving intelligence in support of their war-justifying claims because that’s what they repeatedly demanded. Neither Bush nor his top advisors were passive participants, meekly accepting and believing what the CIA and other intelligence agencies told them. Any suggestion that that was the case (i.e. that litany you’re so tired of repeating) is a distortion of the record. > > The 9/11 commission makes it clear that no one felt the slightest bit of pressure from the White House to sex up the weapons claims. None. Sure, the White House repeatedly asked for more data. _That’s what they are supposed to do_. It’s a serious issue, so you press your intelligence agencies to give you as much as they can. But there was no apparent attempt to pressure them into cooking the books. [None?](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/05/1054700335400.html?oneclick=true) > [@](#): > > Multiple visits to the CIA by the United States Vice-President, Dick Cheney, created an environment in which some analysts felt they were being pressured to make their assessments on Iraq fit with Bush Administration policy objectives, intelligence officials said. And there’s Bush leaning on Clarke on 9/12/01 to come up with a connection between Iraq and the events of the previous day (Iraq? why Iraq at all, then?), there’s the creation of alternative shops (such as the Office of Special Plans) to massage the intel differently from the CIA, there’s the Administration insistence that the sources provided by Chalabi were good, when the CIA was dubious. No pressure. None. > [@](#): > > And in fact, in Woodward’s book there is a scene in which George Bush is skeptical of CIA intelligence, saying ,“This is the best you can do for evidence? I’m not going to the American people with this.” George Tenet then stands up and says, “Mr. President, it’s a slam dunk. There is no question.” So rather than the war-happy president pressuring a reluctant CIA, it almost sounds the opposite, doesn’t it? The President was skeptical, and his CIA chief was pushing hard for their assessment that Saddam did have WMD. Was Woodward an eyewitness to this encounter? If not, who were his sources? Woodward’s become a bit of a shill in recent years, and while I’m sure he retains his two-source rule, this sort of statement is so contrary to everything we know of what Bush might say - the same Bush who, for instance, goes on and on to the American people about Saddam being a madman, without any supporting evidence whatsoever - that I’ve got to wonder who Bob’s sources were, and what their agenda was. And even if it happened as stated, Bush was certainly easily satisfied: “I need more evidence.” “Sir, it’s a slam-dunk, I tell ya!” “OK, good enough for me. Evidence, schmevidence.” > [@](#): > > As for Bush’s certainty with the public, well, that’s what leaders are supposed to do. Having decided that Saddam was in fact a serious threat, he made the case to the American people and the world. Just like when the government after much debate decides on a certain trade policy. The president doesn’t come out and make speeches offering both sides of the debate, saying, “Well, on the one hand there may be these negative effects, but on the other we have this…” The decision is made behind closed doors, then the President comes out as an advocate for the position and sells it to the people. It’s always been that way. True - but more honest Presidents state the counterarguments and rebut them, rather than fail to acknowledge their existence. That’s still salesmanship, but it’s _honest_ salesmanship. > [@](#): > > The real question is whether or not the decision was reasonable given the facts. We’re clearly going to disagree on that. Maybe it might have been reasonable, if they’d had a genuine plan for what happened after Saddam’s statue got toppled - one that dealt with risk. Like: what are the risks? What are the likelihoods and potential impacts of the risk events? And what our our contingency plans to reduce the likelihood and impact of the risk events? GWB says he’s the CEO President. This is standard risk-management stuff that you’d learn in a one-day seminar, without having to get an MBA - which GWB has, not that he’s showing much sign of having learned any lessons from it. Without such a plan, there’s no viable debate. The invasion was a knuckleheaded, disastrous (for both Iraq and the US) mistake, period. And hope is not a plan. With such a plan, there’s a debate, but not much of one. There were all sorts of [disagreements](http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/8145154.htm) [about](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/they_knew_0802/) whether the intel was any good - on each and every point of the intel, it seems: on Saddam’s nuclear program (was there much of one? What about the yellowcake from Africa? How about the aluminum tubes?), Saddam’s biological weapons, the al-Qaeda connection, even the humanitarian stuff. Even looking at Iraq in isolation, as if it were the only threat in the world, the case is shot through with holes. And especially after we told the inspectors where to look for WMDs, and they came up empty, you’d think we’d have realized: there’s nothing there. (And maybe we did. My personal belief, my WAG, is that the Bushies went to war when they did because if they didn’t, it would soon become apparent that the threat didn’t exist.) But when you look at Iraq side by side with other world threats, what do you see? Nuclear weapons? Sure - in Pakistan, probably in NK, and soon in Iran. But not anytime soon in Iraq, much as Saddam would like them. Al-Qaeda connections? Sure - in Pakistan and Iran, but not in Iraq. Humanitarian abuses? Sure, in North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma, but to a much lesser extent in places like Iran and Iraq. Hostile towards us? Iran, Iraq, North Korea. Recently attacked us, or actively trying to have the means to do so? Iran, North Korea. Might nuke somebody if we attacked them? (IOW, we’d better not!) NK, Pakistan. Someone we can hand power over to, for an easy out when we’re done? Sure, in Iran and Burma. But not in Iraq or NK. Once you start doing that sort of comparison, who do you invade first, if invade you must? Iran, hands down. Maybe the Bushies just made a typo and never fixed it. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/142 "2004-08-04T17:16:15Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Okay, let’s see…you lost credibility with me and I stopped listening to anything you had to say, right about…here: "And if your idea of morals is the lying fuck that George W. Bush is, you’ve got some twisted-ass morals indeed. Oh my, but that’s rich, given that in the post I was replying to, _you_ spit out the little gem about how Democrats don’t seem to be guided by moral convictions. And you think _you_ should have any credibility after that? HAH! > [@](#): > > And you do not know, of your own personal knowledge, that Bush lied about anything. So spare me. > [@](#): > > I said Shyla (sic) did not know (and could not know) that Bush was lying. Not unless she was a mind reader. Are you insane? Seriously. What kind of idiot thinks one could only discern a lie if one were a mind reader? > [@](#): > > Bush believed the same things that most of Europe believed, that most of the Middle East believed, that Russia believed, that the U.N. believed (damn, I get tired of having to go through this litany), that the CIA believed, that the FBI believed, that Bill Clinton himself believed, but no…Bush knew better than them all that what they believed was untrue but deliberately decided to take advantage of the fact to lie to the American people by telling them the same things they were already being told were true were in fact true when he knew they weren’t. I’m afraid it’s _you_ who’s “going to have to limit your claims to what I actually said,” asshole. Or is reading for comprehension not your strong suit? Try reading my post again and see if you can find where I said one word about Bush lying about WMD or Iraq or anything at all specifically related to the war. In fact, the only examples I specifically quoted were lies he told before he was even elected. He claimed, in the 2000 debates, that he had supported a Patient’s Bill of Rights as Governor of Texas. He claimed that as president, he would do the same. (All bolding mine) > [@](#): > > [http://www.c-span.org/campaign2000/transcript/debate\_101700.asp](http://www.c-span.org/campaign2000/transcript/debate_101700.asp) > > I do support a national patients’ bill of rights. As a matter of fact, **I brought Republicans and Democrats together to do just that in the state of Texas to get a patients’ bill of rights through**. It requires a different kind of leadership style to do it, though. You see, in order to get something done on behalf of the people, you have to put partisanship aside, and that’s what we did in my state. > > \ > > If I’m the president, we’re going to have emergency room care, we’re going to have gag orders, women will have direct access to OB/GYN, **people will be able to take their HMO insurance company to court**. That’s what I’ve done in Texas, and that’s the kind of leadership style I’ll bring to Washington. He did nothing of the sort in Texas and he did nothing of the sort once in the office of president. > [@](#): > > [http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/02/07/patients/index.html](http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/02/07/patients/index.html) > > The “bill of rights” legislation gets a boost from a bipartisan team – while the White House plots its downfall. > > A patients bill of rights did get introduced Tuesday by a bipartisan crew led by Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and its sponsors expect that they will even get the 60 votes necessary to avoid a filibuster in the Senate. **And that’s much to the chagrin of the White House, which had done its best to put the patients bill on ice** , and almost succeeded. > > On Monday, the White House summoned Rep. Charlie Norwood, R-Ga., who had helped draft the legislation last year, and another main supporter, Rep. Greg Ganske, R-Iowa, to meet with President Bush’s advisors on healthcare, including Bush’s deputy chief of staff for domestic policy, Josh Bolten; Ann Phelps, a former legislative aide to Sen. Bill Frist, R-Tenn. – one of the only physicians in Congress who seems to have good feelings about HMOs – and senior advisor Karl Rove, Mephistopheles to Bush’s Faust. > > During the three-hour meeting, Norwood and Ganske, a dentist and a reconstructive surgeon, were asked not to introduce their bill. > > \ > > … **the major snag consists of provisions that would lift federal restrictions preventing HMO patients from suing their providers over unfair coverage denials.** > > \ > > Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients bill of rights, **Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995**. He had his insurance commissioner draft into law some of the less controversial bits of the bill – like letting women choose gynecologists as their primary-care doctors – but **constantly opposed a patient’s right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects**. Faced with a vetoproof majority in 1997, **he had his legislative aide, Vance McMahan, do everything he could to sabotage the bill** , to the point that Republican legislators complained on the floor of the Texas Senate. Then, faced with a vetoproof majority, Bush let the bill become law without his signature. He lied. He lied to you to try to get elected. And you want to support a liar and then claim the moral high ground. “Pretty ridiculous, don’t you think? A classic example of bias and hatred at work.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/143 "2004-08-04T17:46:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Funny thing is, the leftistas who were gang-banging me in that pathetic thread about the five minutes in the classroom were insisting that the president, instead of sitting around “doing nothing”, should have been on his feet, _demanding more information_. 😃 Yeah, that _is_ pretty amusing, that you can’t tell the difference between (a) wanting more information so you’ll know what’s going on, and (b) wanting more information only to justify the position you’ve already staked out. Just in case you’re wondering: a = good, b = bad. Lib, talking with you is kinda like talking to someone who pretends he can’t tell the difference between navy blue and the blue generally thought of as sky blue, because they’re both blue. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/144 "2004-08-04T17:54:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t care. I’m right. If an Arab state has the bomb (which is every country’s right) then maybe the US won’t be so eager to “spread democracy” around the world. The rest of the world needs a way to keep the US in check. The Bomb stops wars. Pass the bong, dude. How the fuck do you figure there exists a ‘right to The Bomb’? > [@lambchops](#): > > They could tell Iraq to give up the Shatt al-Arab and a nice slice of oil-rich land and Iraq couldn’t do shit. Have you checked the current status of this little slice of real estate? > [@Starving Artist](#): > > During the cold war, when only the U.S. and the Soviet Union had both atomic weapons and the ability to deliver them, How long did this last? a year or two of the Cold War? > [@elucidato](#): > > How blessed are we, to have hard-[minded] and [realists] amongst us, to keep us foolish and fuzzy-thinking pollyannas in check. Thank you, I try. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Bush believed the same things that most of Europe believed, that most of the Middle East believed, that Russia believed, that the U.N. believed (damn, I get tired of having to go through this litany), that the CIA believed, that the FBI believed… Yes. Yes, he did. But one of the critical, fundamental differences is that he believed other things that the above mentioned parties did not-namely that Hussein was likely to initiate an attack on the Us either directly or by proxy. This assessment of the threat posed by the chemical and biological weapons tha Hussein was thought to posess is constantly missing in the pro-war litany. No one thought that Hussein woud risk what James Baker III called the ‘resounding silence’ in the Iraqi desert- you know, what Condi Rice caled ‘national obliteration’. They just didn’t. The National Intelligence Estimate that represnted the best estimate of the US intel community said so. Hussein was not going to attack the US (no, not even by proxy) barrels of mustard gas he had in storage. _I_ get tired of having to point that out over and over, all the time, constantly. Matter of fact the Bush Admin (and by extension many of the pro-war crowd) were played for suckers by Iranian intelligence services into believing hyped up bullshit about the threat that Hussein posed. Funny, the DIA, the CIA and teh INR warned the Bush Admin that the INC were liars and thieves up to no good. the Bush Admin deliberately chose to keep trusting a _ **known** _ spy in the midst of these liars and thieves. I know that you don’t see this decision as a monumental fuck-up that it was. That’s your choice. I think that it’s piss poor way to conduct my nation’s business. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Only if you read only the majority conclusion, as in Republican party line. Hell, let’s go right to [Conservative News Service:](http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200407%5CNAT20040709b.html) You’re conflating the 9-11 report with the SSCI report. Two different animals. Try that all again. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/145 "2004-08-04T17:56:06Z")
Thanks for bringing up that example, **Shayna**. It’s one of the classics. You rock. Damn, it’s hard to keep track of all the Bush lies anymore, there are so many of them. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/146 "2004-08-04T17:58:35Z")
# Hussein was not going to attack the US (no, not even by proxy) barrels of mustard gas he had in storage. Hussein was not going to attack the US (no, not even by proxy) _no matter how many_ barrels of mustard gas he had in storage. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/147 "2004-08-04T18:32:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Lib, talking with you is kinda like talking to someone who pretends he can’t tell the difference between navy blue and the blue generally thought of as sky blue, because they’re both blue. Then you must be insane. You are, after all, talking to me. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/148 "2004-08-04T19:08:55Z")
Oops, yes, you’re right, **SimonX** , my error. All these belated investigations, hard to keep track of 'em all. About time, though. **Sam of Arabia** ’s contention that the Administration has been completely and unequivocally exonerated of applying pressure on the agencies to tell them what they wanted to hear remains blinkered bullshit, however. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/149 "2004-08-04T19:15:26Z")
It’s that season again: the season when one side of the political spectrum pretends to be completely confused by the obvious in order to make room for criticisms they know are complete bullshit. I’m still reeling from the actual defense of the “Kerry voted against the troops” line. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/150 "2004-08-04T19:24:01Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I’m still reeling from the actual defense of the “Kerry voted against the troops” line. If it’s a reeler, then I’d like to hear it. Do tell. Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/151 "2004-08-04T19:35:03Z")
Oh, piff, that ain’t shit! You gotta go to _National Review Online_ to get the _real_ stuff. Personal favorite is an article about how Kerry was an “asset” of the KGB. And did you hear about his plan for a Constitutional amendment to force Eagle Scouts into gay marriages? My sister-in-laws hairdresser knows this guy who has a computer… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/152 "2004-08-04T20:01:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You gotta go to _National Review Online_ to get the _real_ stuff. Ah, yes, Left meets Right. For you, it must be just like looking at the mirror. Come to think of mirrors, many cute furry animals upon seeing their own reflection, start growling. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/153 "2004-08-04T20:10:22Z")
This coming from **Iskander** , who has always been one of the most esteemed posters on this board. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/154 "2004-08-04T20:30:56Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > many cute furry animals upon seeing their own reflection, start growling. **Grrrrr…** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/155 "2004-08-04T20:58:49Z")
I quite empathize. When I gaze in the mirror, and see what appears to be a morphed image combining the characteristics of George Clooney and Sean Connery, I despair that I might ever be esteemed for my mind, rather than dismissed as merely another toothsome chunk of man-cheese. Then, of course, I shave. And try to find the strength to go on. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/156 "2004-08-04T21:01:01Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Ah, yes, Left meets Right. For you, it must be just like looking at the mirror. Come to think of mirrors, many cute furry animals upon seeing their own reflection, start growling. Hey **'luci** – **NI** thinks you’re _cute_! Wooooooooo… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/157 "2004-08-04T21:11:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Thanks for bringing up that example, **Shayna**. It’s one of the classics. You rock. > > Damn, it’s hard to keep track of all the Bush lies anymore, there are so many of them. Why, thank you, **RT**. You’re quite the bee’s knees yourself! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/158 "2004-08-04T21:12:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Then you must be insane. And happily so, thanks. > [@](#): > > You are, after all, talking to me. I’ve been doing far too much of that lately. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/159 "2004-08-04T21:13:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Then, of course, I shave. Your face or your back? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-already/258063/160 "2004-08-04T21:16:06Z")
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