# Kerry will self-destruct **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 18, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865 "2004-02-18T20:26:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/41 "2004-02-20T02:28:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s a little indirect but McCain relaesed a pretty scathing [attack](http://www.usvetdsp.com/mccain_pr_13feb.htm) on the so-called “Vietnam Vets Against John Kerry” last week. He was especially harsh on group organizer, Ted Sampley: > > It’s not really an _endorsement_ of Kerry (which would not be expected) but it’s a blistering assault on those who are attacking Kerry’s war record. [Ted Sampley](http://www.miafacts.org/prankster.htm) is quite a character and his issues with Kerry and McCain go back to the Senate Special Committee on POW-MIA affiars in the early 90s , which Kerry chaired and McCain was a member of. Initially, McCain was the the target of Sampley’s ire, and was targeted in a series of articles tarnishing his patriotism and accusing him of being a [“Manchurian Candidate”](http://www.usvetdsp.com/manchuan.htm), copted by the KGB during his captivity. (For a contrary look at these accusations, read [this](http://www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm). Sampley’s charges languished until McCain began his run for the presidency. Then they started to percolate throughout the conservative media and commentary base (NewsMax, Front Page, TownHall, etc.), which seemed to accept the story uncritically. The accusations never really hit the mainstream media, but was reprinted on right-wing sites a lot and possibly did real harm to McCain during the primaries. Now Sampley trots out his new organization (he has several) to get the smear machine against Kerry, his other long-time enemy, going. He’ll probably get more mainstream media attention this time, but if Republican operatives are depending on Sampley to carry the anti-Kerry standard it could backfire, especailly if media sources look at his background and not blithely accept his stories. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/42 "2004-02-20T03:14:54Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > What does scare me is not Senator Kerry and any proclivities he might have, but rather the immense war chest that the President and his friends have accumulated over the past three years. That money has to be spent before the national convention. After that the spending limits kick in to level the playing field. I’m not at all sure that Senator Kerry can contend with the barrage of half truths that will be dropped on the TV watching public between now and the GOP convention. Right. So the issue facing Democratic Primary voters is: “Who can better withstand the Republican smear brigade, Kerry or Edwards?” (Also: I thought that Bush had turned down matching funds so that the hard money spending limits do not apply. 😕 ) ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/43 "2004-02-20T04:19:58Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > (Also: I thought that Bush had turned down matching funds so that the hard money spending limits do not apply. 😕 ) Relying on a story on NPR last week, it is my understanding that since both President Bush and Senator Kerry have opted out of public funding they can both spend what ever amount they want up through their respective party’s convention but that after the convention each is limited in what they can spend whether they are taking public money or not. Maybe somebody with an expertise in this stuff can give us a definitive answer. I may have misunderstood the NPR story but I think that is what the supposed expert who was doing the talking had to say. His point is that from now until the Republican convention the President might bury Senator Kerry in advertizing because there is no point to saving it up for the general election. And speaking of the “Republican smear brigade,” our friend **Beagle** has brought up the prospect of a Kerry self destruction in **General Questions** , on the topic of Bush allied web sight depreciating Senator Kerry’s record in Vietnam (_e.g._, he wasn’t awarded the decorations in Vietnam–of course he didn’t get them until well after the events and after he had left Vietnam, there is a procedure, you know). In the **GQ** he suggests that there are “other” scandles being held in reserve to dump on Kerry at some more advantages moment. How our friend knows that he does not tell. If he is privy to the internal workings of the GOP propaganda machine you would think that he would keep his mouth shut so as not to give away the ambush. If he isn’t privy to the plan then he doesn’t know any more that he is told each day by Rush and the boys and he is blowing smoke. Having uncovered the ambush you would think that if he is to maintain any credibility he would tell us what these reserved mud balls might be. Otherwise we must conclude that our friend is once more engaged ia an exercise in wishful thinking, friends, wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/44 "2004-02-20T21:22:06Z")
I’m sure that in the mind of **Beagle** and the other Bushistas, Kerry’s choice of having a bagel or cereal for breakfast is a “scandal” just waiting to be dumped on the six o’clock news. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/45 "2004-02-21T00:08:50Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > George W. Bush has the dubious and perhaps unique distinction of having been caught **lying to the American people to start a war** less than a year after he told those lies. That’s what my father called it when he was flying missions against German submarines while the United States was “neutral”. BTW, at least half of the comments here have ignored the issue. Not the testimony in front of the 1971 committee, but its use as an instrument of propaganda against actual US POWs. I know that sometimes English is a difficult language, but this is seriously malfeasance. Hey, rubes, read the article! ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/46 "2004-02-21T00:45:18Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > BTW, at least half of the comments here have ignored the issue. Not the testimony in front of the 1971 committee, but its use as an instrument of propaganda against actual US POWs. I know that sometimes English is a difficult language, but this is seriously malfeasance. Malfeasance on who’s part? Seriously, I think people are ignoring the “issue” because they don’t think there is one, and that you’re completely nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/47 "2004-02-21T00:49:02Z")
Funny, I haven’t voted for a Republican presidential candidate since Reagan in 1984 – my first election. You fucknugged closed-minded leftists wouldn’t know an independent thought if it fell out of a tree and hit you in the head. HEY, MORONS, SOME PEOPLE CARE ABOUT POWs – and lying that gets them tortured. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/48 "2004-02-21T01:08:00Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > HEY, MORONS, SOME PEOPLE CARE ABOUT POWs – and lying that gets them tortured. Establish the following premises in support of your above statement if you would please. 1. Kerry’s statement before Congress about acts committed in Vietnam was a lie. 2. POWs in Viet Cong custody were tortured some/more as a result of Kerry’s statements. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/49 "2004-02-21T01:14:24Z")
> [@Already in Use](#): > > So Kerry’s speeches have been used as torture? What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Nothing. Taranto’s daily column, which I enjoy immensely and recommend, is a mix of serious, snarky and funny. Mostly the latter two (his bye-kus are great – his “what would XX do without YY” headling riffs are hilarious). This tidbit fits squarely into the “snarky” column. Why someone decided to start a whole thread over it is a question best left to that person. It’s kind of like quoting Al Franken. How seriously some people some people in this thread are taking it given that it’s in the BBQ Pit and not GD is best left to them. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/50 "2004-02-21T04:31:25Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > BTW, at least half of the comments here have ignored the issue. Not the testimony in front of the 1971 committee, but its use as an instrument of propaganda against actual US POWs. I know that sometimes English is a difficult language, but this is seriously malfeasance. Hey, rubes, read the article! So, should the civil rights movement been shut down lest reports of difficulties demoralize the troops? Should the troops in-country be denied access to radios capable of non-official business, lest they be swayed by the siren song of propoganda? Perhaps all reports of casulaties (and all untoward events) should be suppressed, lest the American people lose faith in their government or the war effort? Should all reports of police brutality and corruption be suppressed, lest public confidence be shaken and the good cops morale be injured? Are any protests at all allowed over anything, or is the danger of perceptions of disunity being used against us just too horrific to contemplate. You are not accusing Kerry of lying, as far as I can tell. You are suggesting that some how he is responsible for the fact that his testimony before congress on the conduct of the war in Vietnam was used as propoganda against POWS. Yes, had he not testified, those particular words would not be a potential torture device. In which case no doubt the North Vietnamese would have given up on torture? In you were John Kerry what would you have done? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/51 "2004-02-21T06:52:20Z")
Actually, **Beagle** is using kid-gloves. So will I. Certain Veterans may feel conflicted about Kerry. On the one hand, he served honorably in Vietnam. On the other hand, he allied himself with hippie-freaks when our boys were dying in Vietnam. (Or so they will smear.) Policywise, that’s understandable. Viserally - well, welcome to the 432nd Battle of the so-called Culture War. OTOH, Kerry is such a square that maybe the Jane Fonda accusation won’t stick. I guess the election will be about gay marriage and the Super Bowl. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/52 "2004-02-21T07:07:39Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > BTW, at least half of the comments here have ignored the issue. Not the testimony in front of the 1971 committee, but its use as an instrument of propaganda against actual US POWs. I know that sometimes English is a difficult language, but this is seriously malfeasance. Hey, rubes, read the article! Why don’t you answer this question: If some American POWs were tortured while listening to Kerry’s speech, how the fuck is that Kerry’s fault? He didn’t deliver the speech in person, the torturers played a recording of it. If someone tried to smack some sense into your head with an encyclopedia set, are you gonna blame Britannica? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/53 "2004-02-21T18:53:55Z")
When Kerry was testifying in front of the Senate in 1971, there were ELEVEN TV cameras covering his comments – INCLUDING SOVIET COVERAGE. (Eleven was practically all the advanced TV cameras at the time) His comments WERE LIES – and he knew it. His own statements made him a culprit in crimes against humanity, if they were true. He, himself, said it was a systematic problem throughout the entire leadership structure – I guess, except HIMSELF. He was too stupid to know that the barbaric North Vietnamese would use his comments as a reason to torture his “comrades-in-arms”? FUCKING HELL, HE WAS! He just didn’t care. Similarly his estimate that “2,000 would die” as a result of the US leaving SE Asia was only wrong by a factor of 1,000. My father knew that the United States was winning WWII, because every time the Americans captured an island he would be beaten. I have a feeling that if someone like Kerry had existed at the end of WWII, had Dad still managed to survive prison camp, he would have killed him. “Life without, fine!” “That will be the Crown Plaza compared to what this rat fuck put me through.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/54 "2004-02-21T19:21:38Z")
> [@](#): > > His comments WERE LIES – and he knew it. Fucking CITE?? What did Kerry say that was a lie? Out with it. Kerry was trying to end the war but he also had an obligation to speak out if atrocities were being committed by US soldiers _which they fucking **were** _. Should Kerry have ignored those atrocities? Should he have suppressed the findings of his investigation? Are you sure you’re not a Freeper? Because blaming Kerry for crimes committed agianst POWs is so ridiculously twisted and partisan that I have to wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/55 "2004-02-21T19:37:03Z")
Fucking research his denials. You are the best example of a PARTISAN NIMROD I can think of. Are you capable of internet research? Your posts indicate not. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/56 "2004-02-21T19:51:10Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > Fucking research his denials. You are the best example of a PARTISAN NIMROD I can think of. > > Are you capable of internet research? Your posts indicate not. Has no one explained to how this board works? YOU are the one making the assertion, ie. that Kerry “lied” in his testimony before congress. YOU, then have the burden to _back up your assertion_. You also know that personal insults don’t belong in GD. Quit acting like a newbie. BTW, I can’t be a “partisan” because I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of any political party. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/57 "2004-02-21T21:13:52Z")
Good God, **Beagle** , have you entirely lost all contact with the mother ship? I’ve seen some pretty heavily rightarded stuff on these boards, in my time, but I’m beginning to seriously question your sanity. What in the world does the Japanese record on POW’s, appalling as it is, have to do with John Kerry? And are you seriously trying to suggest that when John Kerry spoke of atrocities committed by _some_ American soldiers in 'Nam, he was making it up? Seriously? This isn’t some misguided attempt at a very, very bad joke? I thought this “war protestors are traitors” drivel was gone, never to return. Its like a rotting corpse strolling into my living room and sitting on my couch. Your last two posts left a slime trail on my monitor. I urge you to reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/58 "2004-02-21T21:28:08Z")
> [@](#): > > His comments WERE LIES – and he knew it. His own statements made him a culprit in crimes against humanity, if they were true. He, himself, said it was a systematic problem throughout the entire leadership structure – I guess, except HIMSELF. [Lies?](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040215/SRTIGERFORCE/102150175) > [@](#): > > From the _Toledo Blade_/Sunday, February 15, 2004 > **Investigators will question ex-GIs about killing spree > Rumsfeld refers case to secretary of Army** > > WASHINGTON - In a case that has reached the top levels of the Pentagon, military investigators will begin interviewing former soldiers of an elite platoon accused of slaughtering scores of unarmed civilians in the Vietnam War. > > The move represents the first effort by the military to talk to soldiers since a Blade series in October revealed the platoon’s brutal sweep through 40 villages where civilians were tortured and killed. > > The newspaper found that field commanders knew of the soldiers’ actions, and in some cases, encouraged the violence. > > Though the Army spent 4 1/2 years investigating the special force starting in 1971 - substantiating 20 war crimes against 18 soldiers - the case never reached a military court and no one was charged. > > As part of the new inquiry, the Army has appointed an investigator to look into why the original Army inquiry was dropped in 1975 with no charges filed. Here’s a [link](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE) to the original series published last year: > [@](#): > > THE TOLEDO Blade newspaper ran a four-part investigative series in October 2003. In their eight-month investigation, Blade reporters Michael Sallah and Mitch Weiss reviewed thousands of classified Army documents, National Archive records and radio logs, and interviewed more than 100 former Tiger Force soldiers and Vietnamese civilians. > > They found not only that Tiger Force was responsible for horrifying war crimes against the Vietnamese people, but that the Army and U.S. government did nothing to stop them. > > The Blade’s investigation began after the newspaper obtained 22 pages of classified Army records detailing atrocities by Tiger Force. The records of the Army’s Criminal Investigation Command were just the start. Want more? [Link](http://hnn.us/articles/1802.html): > [@](#): > > **The Vietnam War Crimes You Never Heard Of > By Nick Turse** > As a historian writing his dissertation on U.S. war crimes and atrocities during the Vietnam War, I have been immersed in just the sort of archival materials the Toledo Blade used in its pieces, but not simply for one incident but hundreds if not thousands of analogous events. I can safely, and sadly, say that the “Tiger Force” atrocities are merely the tip of the iceberg in regard to U.S.-perpetrated war crimes in Vietnam. However, much of the mainstream historical literature dealing with Vietnam War atrocities (and accompanying cover-ups and/or sham investigations), has been marginalized to a great extent – aside from obligatory remarks concerning the My Lai massacre, which is, itself, often treated as an isolated event. > > Military records demonstrate that the “Tiger Force” atrocities are only the tip of a vast submerged history of atrocities in Vietnam. In fact, while most atrocities were likely never chronicled or reported, the archival record is still rife with incidents analogous to those profiled in the Blade articles, including the following atrocities chronicled in formerly classified Army documents: > > –A November 1966 incident in which an officer in the Army’s Fourth Infantry Division, severed an ear from a Vietnamese corpse and affixed it to the radio antenna of a jeep as an ornament. The officer was given a non-judicial punishment and a letter of reprimand. > > –An August 1967 atrocity in which a 13-year-old Vietnamese child was raped by American MI interrogator of the Army’s 196th Infantry Brigade. The soldier was convicted only of indecent acts with a child and assault. He served seven months and sixteen days for his crime. > > –A September 1967 incident in which an American sergeant killed two Vietnamese children – executing one at point blank range with a bullet to the head. Tried by general court martial in 1970, the sergeant pleaded guilty to, and was found guilty of, unpremeditated murder. He was, however, sentenced to no punishment. > > –An atrocity that took place on February 4, 1968, just over a month before the My Lai massacre, in the same province by a man from the same division (Americal). The soldier admitted to his commanding officer and other men of his unit that he gunned down three civilians as they worked in a field. A CID investigation substantiated his confession and charges of premeditated murder were preferred against him. The soldier requested a discharge, which was granted by the commanding general of the Americal Division, in lieu of court martial proceedings. > > –A series of atrocities similar to, and occurring the same year as, the “Tiger Force” war crimes in which one unit allegedly engaged in an orgy of murder, rape and mutilation, over the course of several months. > > While not yielding the high-end body count estimate of the “Tiger Force” series of atrocities, the above incidents begin to demonstrate the ubiquity of the commission of atrocities on the part of American forces during the Vietnam War. On a lighter note: > [@](#): > > Fucking research his denials. Research _denials_??? I love the perverse logic of this, so here’s the result of some quick [“research”](http://www.satiresearch.com/go.asp?sid=24675): > [@](#): > > **February 17, 2004 > John Kerry Scandal: More Women Who Did Not Have An Affair With Senator Step Forward** > John Kerry battled again today to fend off allegations that won’t throw his frontrunner status in the Democratic primaries into turmoil as several more women admitted not to having an affair with the Massachusetts senator. > > The women, aged 21 to 40, claimed that on repeated occasions John Kerry never touched them, made unwanted advances or placed them in an awkward position. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![schplebordnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@schplebordnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schplebordnik)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/59 "2004-02-21T21:31:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And are you seriously trying to suggest that when John Kerry spoke of atrocities committed by _some_ American soldiers in 'Nam, he was making it up? Full text of his comments are here: [http://www.urich.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html](http://www.urich.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html) I’d be interested in having someone show some support for the following statements he made: “War crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents **but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command**.” “They told the stories at times they had personally raped, **cut off ears** , **cut off heads** , **taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals** and turned up the power, **cut off limbs** , blown up bodies, **randomly shot at civilians** , razed villages **in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan** , shot cattle and dogs for fun, **poisoned food stocks**.” “Blacks provided the **highest percentage of casualties** ” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865/60 "2004-02-21T21:57:15Z")
Tell you what you do, pal. Amble on over to Google and enter something along the lines of “US soldiers war crimes Viet Nam”. Take a sandwhich with you, you’re going to be a while. It happened. Not because American soldiers are any worse than anyone else’s soldiers, they most assuredly are not. It happened because when you soak any human being in cruelty and brutality they become cruel and brutal. I daresay very few of us can be entirely sure how we would respond under the same circumstances. Kerry told the truth. It is a bitter and shameful truth, but the truth, nonetheless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerry-will-self-destruct/229865.md?page=4)