# Kerry's Botched Joke **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631 "2006-10-31T19:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/182 "2006-11-01T16:50:56Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One] I was in the Navy with Dio during the same approximate time period in the 80’s, although we never met to the best of my knowledge. One thing that he is failing to mention is the all-important AFQT score from the Armed Forces Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) test. All jobs within the Navy at that time (and very likely still today) had minimum AFQT scores to qualify. It was a two digit number which summarized your score on the ASVAB. Mine was an 86, which qualified me to do anything. Lower scores were restricted to jobs such as the all purpose Boatswains Mate or Mess Specialist. Am I saying that all BM’s or MS’s are dumb? No. But I am saying that you won’t find any idiots running the nuclear reactors. The military is just like society in general. It has under and over achievers, those who are goal oriented and professional as well as those who are counting the days until they get out. [/quote] This I agree with and matches my experience as well. I didn’t mean that a majority of those in the enlisted ranks were idiots but that the military (at least in those days and I suspect the same is true now) was _also_ a repository for the poor, the uneducated and the delinquent. It’s not that “military=uneducated/unmotovated,” but that oftentimes the military is the only good _option_ for the uneducated/unmotivated. **Sam** is also right that in Kerry’s day, staying in school was unquestionably synonomous with staying out of Vietnam. I think it’s all moot anyway since listening to the stement in context makes it crystal clear that Kerry was talking about Bush. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/183 "2006-11-01T16:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Great story - I love it. I lived in Boston for many years and still have lots of friends there. Apparently local talk show hosts could fill lots of time by inviting callers to call in with their personal experiences of run-ins with Kerry. Lots of funny arrogance and conceit. [/QUOTE] kerry bought a townhouse on beacon Hill in Boston. apparently, he was “upset” by the fact that the FD had the temerity to place a fire hydrant on the sidewalk outside his house!! Kerry paid to have it moved! Stuck-up piece if shite he is… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/184 "2006-11-01T16:54:21Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Kerry is not the leader of the party and said nothing insensitive. [/QUOTE] Sure, he’s technically a junior Senator and has been in the background since 2004, but the fact is that as the former nominee for President he presumably speaks for a sizeable number of Democrats. That’s how it’s going to be served up for the next week, like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/185 "2006-11-01T16:55:45Z")
So, Kerry who said he wouldn’t apologize, has now [apologized](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061101/ts_nm/usa_elections_kerry_dc_3). I guess he meant that he didn’t apologize before he did apologize. Somone put a gag in his mouth before he ruins it for the Democrats again. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/186 "2006-11-01T16:57:22Z")
[QUOTE=Jess] **brickbacon**? What are your credentials to make the comments you have made? Other than the link you posted about test scores. How many military people have you known? [/QUOTE] I have known plenty of military people, but probably not as many as you. Either way, our personal observations do not add up to much when there is statitical [information](http://www.google.com/search?q=military+aptitude&hl=en&hs=QRc&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&pwst=1&start=10&sa=N) available to back up what I’m saying. > [@](#): > > Harvey, who spoke to reporters during a tour of the recruiting command center at Fort Knox, said about **4 percent of all recruits get the lowest score possible on the Army aptitude test.** > > That figure is down from nearly 50 percent in the late 1970s and early 1980s, Francis said. > > “This does not mean they’re not a good soldier,” Francis said. “It just means they did not score well on this test.” > > Critics have questioned the methods the military used to meet its recruiting goals this year, saying lowered requirements and acceptance of larger numbers of people who would not have qualified in previous years has lowered the quality of the military in the field. > > To back his claim that the Army is recruiting high-quality candidates, Francis said \*\*9,500 recruits in the active military out of about 80,000 - about 13 percent - have some college education and about 5,000 have an associate degree. Francis also said that 210 recruits have master’s degrees and 15 have a Ph.D. > \*\* > “This is the highest quality force the United States has ever had,” Francis said. > > Maj. Gen. Thomas Bostic, who oversees the recruiting command center, **said the goal for 2006 was for 90 percent of all recruits to have high school diplomas. The Army got 81 percent with diplomas with the rest of the recruits either having GEDs or having been home schooled** , Bostic said. Ok, so about 18% (or 13% depending on your you interpret that statement) have an assoc. degree, college degree, or some college. Among the [general](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States) public, 27% have **recieved** the bachelor’s degree. [Nation Master](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_att_ter-education-educational-attainment-tertiary) puts that number (including assoc. degrees) at 37%. Either way, the armed forces are far below that level. To be fair, they seem to have fewer people with little to know education. [QUOTE=Jess] Because my personal experience with military folk has been extensive (see below) and I disagree with you. In my experience, the percentage of really bright military people I’ve met is very close to the percentage of really bright civilians I have met. Similarly, I’ve met about the same percentage of stupid military people as I have stupid civilians. [/QUOTE] I will bet any amount of money that the relative percentage of our best and brightest that end up up in the military is far below the relative percentage that come from poor areas. How many people from Ivy-League schools, and other schools of that calibre end up in the military? Plenty of richer schools don’t even allow military recruiters because they realize their students have “better” options. Obviously, schools like West Point have churned out plenty of bright students, but it’s not even close leveing the playing field. But, you don’t have to take my word for it. Here are a few examples of military recruiting tactics that illustrate that the poor are disproportionately representing in our armed forces ([1](http://observer.medill.northwestern.edu/301-wi06-sec04/2006/03/poor_areas_bear_burden_of_casu.html) [2](http://www.objector.org/ccco/inthenews/recruiteraccess.html) [3](http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=poor+minorities+military+recruiting&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=www.stanford.edu/class/e297c/The%2520Poverty%2520Draft.doc&w=poor+minorities+military+recruiting&d=BVI12JIFNskF&icp=1&.intl=us) [4](http://www.chicagoreporter.com/1991/01-91/0191%20New%20Military%20Data%2080%20Percent%20of%20Chicago%20Area%20Recruits%20are%20Minorities.htm) ). Now of course poor does not equal stupid, but there is a strong correlation between the two. The sad, but obvious reality is that we have an information economy that does not benefit from steering our smartest citizens into the armed forces. That’s why they didn’t draft college students, and that’s why they don’t try to recruit valedictorians and National Merit scholars. I’m not saying all the people in the military are stupid, just that they tend to be less educated and poor, and have fewer educational opportunities. This seems pretty self-evident, and the contrast will become more and more stark as society becomes more advanced. It just doesn’t make sense to steer the next batch of chemical engineers, Rhodes scholars, and doctors to a line of work that increases the likelyhood they will end up crippled by a roadside bomb. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/187 "2006-11-01T16:58:20Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] …I think it’s all moot anyway since listening to the stement in context makes it crystal clear that Kerry was talking about Bush. [/QUOTE] To be ruthlessly fair, I wouldn’t go quite that far. Its entirely reasonable to assume that he talking about the same thing in sentence five that he was talking about in sentence four, absent some clear signal of topic change. Which appears to be missing. And none of our tighty righty correspondents, who know _precisely_ what Kerry meant is able to supply us with any such signal. None is even attempting to do so, but simply blustering ahead as though their raw conjecture were proven fact that has no need for substantiation. Revealed truth is like that, I suppose. I wouldn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/188 "2006-11-01T17:00:18Z")
As irritated by all this “botched joke” fiasco, I am finding it amusing that the best thing that the Republicans have for this election is “Kerry insulted the troops!” In my mind, it kinda mirrors the “All the Democrats do is say they’re not Bush! They have no plan!” of last week. Hell, who needs issues when you’ve got histrionics? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/189 "2006-11-01T17:00:39Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So, Kerry who said he wouldn’t apologize, has now [apologized](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061101/ts_nm/usa_elections_kerry_dc_3). I guess he meant that he didn’t apologize before he did apologize. Somone put a gag in his mouth before he ruins it for the Democrats again. [/QUOTE] ..that he VOTED FOR the Iraq War, BEFORE he VOTED Against the war..aww crap! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/190 "2006-11-01T17:02:41Z")
Ugh. **Lightnin’** needs more caffeine. I meant to say “As irritated _as I am_ by all this…” Oh man… in that one typo I’ve given the Republicans even more ammo! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/191 "2006-11-01T17:12:57Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] As irritated by all this “botched joke” fiasco, I am finding it amusing that the best thing that the Republicans have for this election is “Kerry insulted the troops!” [/QUOTE] Come on, that’s not fair. They have the dire threat of Gay Marriage, too! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/192 "2006-11-01T17:14:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So, Kerry who said he wouldn’t apologize, has now [apologized](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061101/ts_nm/usa_elections_kerry_dc_3). I guess he meant that he didn’t apologize before he did apologize. Somone put a gag in his mouth before he ruins it for the Democrats again. [/QUOTE] Your cite makes it abundantly clear that Kerry apologized for botching the joke. By omiting what Kerry was apologizing for you allow the unfortunate implication that Kerry was apologizing for “dissing the troops”. Which is not the case. > [@](#): > > …A day after rejecting calls to apologize for his remarks, Kerry, appearing on the “Imus in the Morning” radio show on MSNBC, declared: “I said it was a botched joke. Of course, I’m sorry about a botched joke.” > > While campaigning in California on Monday, Kerry told a college crowd: “You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.” > > Kerry’s office said the senator had misread his prepared remarks. They said he had intended to say, “Do you know where you end up if you don’t study, if you aren’t smart, if you’re intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush.”… Unintentional, I’m sure, but still, a bit sloppy. No harm done. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/193 "2006-11-01T17:16:13Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] My question: Will coverage of this gaffe by Kerry backfire on the Republicans? And will that backfire subsequently backfire on the Democrats? And will we end up with a cascading series of backfires, resulting in a GD thread questioning how the whole thing will render the Democrats completely irrelevant? [/QUOTE] Good point! I think it will allow some Dems to call for an apology and make a few brownie points with voters. Could help them win the election. Not sure if those are the kind of LibDems you want but they are the ones likely to win. If they aren’t the kind you want then it makes the party on the left more and more irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/194 "2006-11-01T17:16:51Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] He says everyone in Viet Nam committed war crimes on a daily basis. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/195 "2006-11-01T17:22:59Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Your cite makes it abundantly clear that Kerry apologized for botching the joke. By omiting what Kerry was apologizing for you allow the unfortunate implication that Kerry was apologizing for “dissing the troops”. Which is not the case. Unintentional, I’m sure, but still, a bit sloppy. No harm done. [/QUOTE] A classic Kerry-esque distinction that is why he needs to STFU. Yesterday he said he apoligizes to no one. It’s clear to me what he’s trying to do. He’s trying to push himself to the head of the “I can stand up to Republicans” line after the cheers that Clinton got for going after them on Fox a few weeks ago. But he can’t do it. I know Bill Clinton, and John Kerry is no Bill Clinton. Look at what his web site is saying: > [@](#): > > I’m not going to be lectured by a stuffed suit White House mouthpiece standing behind a podium, or doughy Rush Limbaugh, who no doubt today will take a break from belittling Michael J. Fox’s Parkinson’s disease to start lying about me just as they have lied about Iraq. Yeah, you go get 'em, Kerry! Fight like the bulldog you are. Oh, that was what you were supposed to do 2 years ago. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/196 "2006-11-01T17:26:39Z")
**ITR champion** > [@](#): > > This thread demonstrates fairly clearly that no one other than shameless Republican whores believes that the joke was anything other than a Bush bash. [Moderator Hat ON] ITR champion, if you _must_ call your fellow posters “whores”, do it in the Pit, NOT here. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/197 "2006-11-01T17:30:51Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] A classic Kerry-esque distinction that is why he needs to STFU. Yesterday he said he apoligizes to no one. It’s clear to me what he’s trying to do. He’s trying to push himself to the head of the “I can stand up to Republicans” line after the cheers that Clinton got for going after them on Fox a few weeks ago. But he can’t do it. I know Bill Clinton, and John Kerry is no Bill Clinton. Look at what his web site is saying: Yeah, you go get 'em, Kerry! Fight like the bulldog you are. Oh, that was what you were supposed to do 2 years ago. :smack: [/QUOTE] So he should just bend over and take it? Its refreshing to see someone come out swinging against bullshit, even if it is too late. Does this change my opinion of Kerry? No. But it sure is nice to see someone not stand by and just ignore the diarrhea spewing forth from certain republicans’ mouths. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/198 "2006-11-01T17:35:11Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] A classic Kerry-esque distinction that is why he needs to STFU… [/QUOTE] With all due awe, **John** , it is not a minor point. It has been stated here as proven fact that Kerry was dissing the troops. Without, I point out again, the slightest, the merest _hint_ of evidence. What is this, semiotics? Deconstruction? “The words don’t mean what they mean, they mean what I say they mean?” ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/199 "2006-11-01T18:05:19Z")
For what it’s worth, the first I saw or heard of this story was the OP of this thread. I read the quote, and, taken just as it is written, out of context of the entire speech, I took it immediately as a slam on the troops. I still haven’t heard it IN context, but only know of the context what I have read in this thread, and I agree from what people are saying here that he may very well have been talking about the President when he said it, and then again, he may not have been. The fact is, John Kerry has spent a lot of energy in his life criticizing the troops. If he wants to be effective as a campaigner for other candidates…or for himself should the situation arise again…he would do well to remember that he has established a reputation of NOT being friendly to the military (which may or may not be earned, but that’s not really the point). He really should be much more careful when he criticizes ANYTHING even vaguely related to the war. Speeches are not heard in their entirety, but in soundbites, and there is nothing about that soundbite that would ever lead me to believe he was talking about the President. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/200 "2006-11-01T18:11:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The fact is, John Kerry has spent a lot of energy in his life criticizing the troops. [/QUOTE] If you believe Rush and friends, yeah. Or if you conflate criticism of command and political leaders with criticism of the troops, yeah. Otherwise not so much. > [@](#): > > he would do well to remember that he has established a reputation of NOT being friendly to the military (which may or may not be earned, but that’s not really the point). Of course it is the point; it is the only point in this thread. If he didn’t say it, those who contend he did are liars. > [@](#): > > Speeches are not heard in their entirety, but in soundbites, and there is nothing about that soundbite that would ever lead me to believe he was talking about the President. Which is why you should never take anything at face value. Critical thinking is a virtue. Use it. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631/201 "2006-11-01T18:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] For what it’s worth, the first I saw or heard of this story was the OP of this thread. I read the quote, and, taken just as it is written, out of context of the entire speech, I took it immediately as a slam on the troops. I still haven’t heard it IN context, but only know of the context what I have read in this thread, and I agree from what people are saying here that he may very well have been talking about the President when he said it, and then again, he may not have been. The fact is, John Kerry has spent a lot of energy in his life criticizing the troops. If he wants to be effective as a campaigner for other candidates…or for himself should the situation arise again…he would do well to remember that he has established a reputation of NOT being friendly to the military (which may or may not be earned, but that’s not really the point). He really should be much more careful when he criticizes ANYTHING even vaguely related to the war. Speeches are not heard in their entirety, but in soundbites, and there is nothing about that soundbite that would ever lead me to believe he was talking about the President. [/QUOTE] Isn’t it your duty as a citizen to put that quote in-context? As you say, the media takes things out of context and re-represents it all the time. Shouldn’t it be our duty to find out the whole story instead of jumping to conclusions about 2% of a speech? A speech, that even if it slams the troops, has absolutely no bearing on whats being done to solve America’s problems in Washington right now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kerrys-botched-joke/378631.md?page=11)