# Ketchup vs. Catsup **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 10, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579 "2001-11-10T04:21:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dirty\_Earthworm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Dirty\_Earthworm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dirty_Earthworm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/1 "2001-11-10T04:21:34Z")
Is there a difference? If so, what? Is ther something about the way the tomatoes are processed? Or is it the company’s preference as to what it is called? It looks and tastes exactly the same, and from what I can tell from reading the labels, they are made form the exact same ingredients, so why is it sometimes ketchup and sometimes catsup? -Syko ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/2 "2001-11-10T04:24:18Z")
You say “ketchup” and I say “catsup”. There’s a song there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/3 "2001-11-10T04:27:27Z")
Alternative spellings for a Malay word (kechap) meaning “fish sauce”. (confirms [yourdictionary.com](http://yourdictionary.com)] Somehow it got its way into English, and dropped its aquatic flavor. If you want to try the original stuff, it is available in ethnic food stores, imported from Thailand or Vietnam. A very nice alternative to vinegar or lemon juice. ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/4 "2001-11-10T04:29:16Z")
Bingo! And I don’t own shares in them… [http://www.importfood.com/sati7501.html](http://www.importfood.com/sati7501.html) ---
**Author:** ![LorieSmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@LorieSmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LorieSmurf)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/5 "2001-11-10T05:53:49Z")
I say “Ketchup” and I like the green and purple kind. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/6 "2001-11-10T06:03:16Z")
There may or may not be a song, but there is a Straight Dope column: [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3\_102a.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_102a.html) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/7 "2001-11-10T13:34:17Z")
_Kicap_ (the spelling used in Malaysia nowadays) is what the Malays call soy sauce. Just the same old brown soy sauce we’re familiar with here, using neither fish nor tomato. The two different Chinese spellings that Cecil cited, _ke-tsiap_ and _koe-chiap_ (for which he had no explanation) probably reflect two different Chinese dialects. One is Amoy-Hokkien and I’m guessing the other would be Cantonese. Either that, or they’re both Amoy-Hokkien, and just got spelled differently because two different people spelled it and there’s no standardized spelling for Amoy-Hokkien. Since Amoy-Hokkien is the main form of Chinese spoken in Malaysia, it influenced the Chinese words that reached us through Malay. For example _tea_, from Malay _teh_, from Amoy-Hokkien _te_ (corresponding to Mandarin _cha_). The Ancient Chinese word these different forms originated from was _d‘a_. The _American Heritage Dictionary_ derives it from > [@](#): > > Amoy _kôetsiap, kêtsiap_, brine of fish: _kôe_, minced seafood + _tsiap_, brine, sauce, juice. The latter word corresponds to Mandarin _zhi_. I haven’t found a Mandarin equivalent for ‘minced seafood’. The spelling _ketchup_ is based on the Malay form of the word, while it looks like _catsup_ was an attempt to recover the original Chinese word. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Iron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Big\_Iron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Iron)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/8 "2001-11-10T14:36:01Z")
“I’m in way over my head.” ---
**Author:** ![Yeah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/dbc845/32.png) [@Yeah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeah)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/9 "2001-11-10T17:11:27Z")
“Kicap (the spelling used in Malaysia nowadays) is what the Malays call soy sauce. Just the same old brown soy sauce we’re familiar with here, using neither fish nor tomato.” In Indonesia it’s “kecap” (pronounced “ketchap”) and is plain brown soy sauce unless it is “kecap manis” (sweet “kecap”) in which case it is like heavily sugared soy sauce. Very good. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/10 "2001-11-10T19:15:59Z")
There is quite a difference between catsup and ketchup. While it may not be apparent to the untrained palate, the spice components and especially the acidity varies dramatically from brand to brand. The greatest difference that I have seen is in the sweetness. I find Hunt’s _catsup_ to be almost cloying compared to my favorite, which is Heinz. You will notice that Heinz _ketchup_ has less sweetness and more of a vinegar topnote to it. As with Best Food’s Mayonnaise, I refuse to have any other brand in my house except Heinz 57 ketchup. The historical etymologies of the word as listed above are all quite precise. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/11 "2001-11-10T20:00:52Z")
From the **OED** : Catchup: 1690 B.E. _Dictionary Cant. Crew_ Ketchup: 1711 Lockyer _Acc. Trade India_ Catsup: 1730 Swift _Paneg. on Dean_ Given that English, itself, had not dinitively settled on its own spelling by that time, it is not hard to understand that the transliteration of a foreign word showed up in multiple variants. I would guess that its immediate popularity would have aided in causing each of the spellings to have established a following hat was never surrendered. (I also note that the _ts_ spelling showed up in Ireland (where those letters could represent the phoneme now represented by _ch_) and that Jonathan Swift’s endorsement might have kept that spelling alive longer than it might otherwise have lasted). ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_the\_Shrubber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@Roger\_the\_Shrubber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_the_Shrubber)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/12 "2001-11-10T22:06:58Z")
are you here to help me with my ketchup problem? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2001, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/13 "2001-11-11T01:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > > Since Amoy-Hokkien is the main form of Chinese spoken in Malaysia, it influenced the Chinese words that reached us through Malay. For example _tea_, from Malay _teh_, from Amoy-Hokkien _te_ (corresponding to Mandarin _cha_). The Ancient Chinese word these different forms originated from was _d‘a_. > \*\* FWIW, the Thai word for fish sauce is _nam bpla_ (literally “sauce fish”, in Thai the adjective follows the noun). This is used in cooking and left on the table as a condiment as well. It smells like fermented fish, which is appropriate since that is what it is. It would be more the Thai equivalent of table salt than ketchup/catsup (in the western sense). Chili/tamarind paste would be a closer equivalent to ketchup, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2001, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ketchup-vs-catsup/92579/14 "2001-11-11T07:07:51Z")
_Nuoc mam_, that’s the Vietnamese word for it I was trying to think of. I have never attempted fermented fish, and likely never will, thank you. I have read that the _garum_ sauce of the ancient Romans was similarly based on fermented fish (perhaps anchovies).