# Key points in the State of the Union **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417 "2008-01-29T04:22:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/41 "2008-01-29T14:36:29Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] How does building factories in Asia reduce unemployment in America? [/QUOTE] And how does shipping our money overseas to buy foreign made goods stimulate the economy? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/42 "2008-01-29T14:39:31Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] The ones who can read. Ask one of them to help you. [/QUOTE] So you got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/43 "2008-01-29T14:46:33Z")
Here’s a [(PDF) 2004 CBO study](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/57xx/doc5746/08-13-EffectiveFedTaxRates.pdf) that shows that the Bush tax cuts reduced the share of taxes paid by the richest quintile, at the expense of the three middle quintiles (with the bottom quintile remaining unchanged). (Table 2 on pp.10-11 of the report.) FWIW, **Johnnie** , it was widely reported back in 2001 that Bush’s tax cuts overlapped in ways that generated a (percentagewise) huge tax cut for a handful of lower-to-middle-income families situated perfectly to take advantage of multiple provisions of the cuts, while not really doing that much for lower-income families generally. So Bush could trot out a few lucky-duck beneficiaries (as you have in post #6) that are far from representative of how most non-rich families fare under the cuts. With respect to the small businesses (post #6 again), 26 million small businesses is a _lot_ of businesses - one business for every eight or nine adults. Most of those small businesses either exist only on paper, or are something one does on the side that produces a modest amount of revenue. The _average_ increase of $4000, if accurate, would be the sort of average you get when averaging you, me, and Bill Gates - on the average, we’re all billionaires, but in reality most of us aren’t. Same with the $4K - a handful of successful small businesses are generating most of that. If you can produce the effect of the tax cut repeal on the _median_ small business of those 26 million, then let’s talk. But right now those are bullshit numbers. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/44 "2008-01-29T14:47:46Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma] it’s irrelevant if it’s just vouchers under a different name. the concept of pell grants for kids is innovating as well as necessary to give the underprigileged a better opportunity. Why would anyone be against that just because it appears to be like a “voucher”. It makes no sense to me to reject this. [/QUOTE] Let’s start by gutting the educational bureaucracy made necessary by NCLB. That’d free up money that can be used for actually educating kids. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/45 "2008-01-29T14:50:03Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] So you got nothing. [/QUOTE] In response to your straw men? Sure. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/46 "2008-01-29T15:14:30Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Which students? The ones being taught at christian madrasahs on the public dime, or those left behind in the impoverished public school system? [/QUOTE] Excellent question. If we had a voucher system, no one would be left behind. As it stands now, rich kids get school choice, and poor kids don’t. Sounds fair to me. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/47 "2008-01-29T15:28:17Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Excellent question. If we had a voucher system, no one would be left behind. As it stands now, rich kids get school choice, and poor kids don’t. Sounds fair to me. :dubious: [/QUOTE] Yes! I, Joe $30K/yr, can afford to send my kid to a $8K a year school if the government would just subsidize 2000 of those dollars! 6 of my 30 thousand a year instead goes to the school — halle-freakin-luyah! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/48 "2008-01-29T15:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] As it stands now, rich kids get school choice, and poor kids don’t. [/QUOTE] That’s a fair counterpoint. Still, fixing _that_ problem while ignoring the fix’s impact on those students remaining in public schools, seems a blinkered way to go about matters. Perhaps Mr. Bush can explain his intitiative in more detail. It might be brilliant 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/49 "2008-01-29T15:36:59Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Excellent question. If we had a voucher system, no one would be left behind. As it stands now, rich kids get school choice, and poor kids don’t. Sounds fair to me. :dubious: [/QUOTE] And when the rich pull their children out of competitive schools that will open for the poor, will this really be an improvement? I do not see how, once a new educational equilibrium is reached, matters will be any better for underpriviliged children, especially with unstable families. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/50 "2008-01-29T15:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] It was a disgusting display, and any decent human being would’ve been ashamed to have given it. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but you were talking about Bush and company. “Decent” isn’t a word they’re versed with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/51 "2008-01-29T15:46:09Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] This was clearly not a “State of the Union” address, either. I kept waiting and waiting for him to tell me what the actual _state_ of the union was, and he never bothered to even bring it up. [/QUOTE] Do they ever? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/52 "2008-01-29T16:05:43Z")
I forget, when did it become law that private schools had to accept special needs kids? ESL kids? Kids with a troubled history? Oh, that’s right. They don’t. They can kick them out if they don’t like their hair. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/53 "2008-01-29T16:06:46Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Excellent question. If we had a voucher system, no one would be left behind. As it stands now, rich kids get school choice, and poor kids don’t. Sounds fair to me. :dubious: [/QUOTE] Nonsense – of course there would still be children left behind. As it stands now, _all_ children get a free education, rich and poor alike. Just because _some_ students have parents who can afford to pay for their kids’ education outside of the public school system, doesn’t relieve the government of its responsibility to provide _quality_ education for those who can’t. Every one of my tax dollars that are removed from my local, public school and get funneled into a private (often religious) schools, means further dilapidation of buildings, fewer books and accessories, less-qualified teachers, larger classrooms and a decline in overall performance. I suggest that if Republicans want poor kids to have greater access to _private_ schools, that you get busy in your local communities and do fund raisers or start scholarship funds. You should not have the right to destroy neighborhood schools to line the pockets of your private institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/54 "2008-01-29T16:08:42Z")
[QUOTE=Maeglin] And when the rich pull their children out of competitive schools that will open for the poor, will this really be an improvement? I do not see how, once a new educational equilibrium is reached, matters will be any better for underpriviliged children, especially with unstable families. [/QUOTE] Rich people already to pull their kids out of schools that have a majority of poor kids, either by moving out of the neighborhoods or by sending their kids elsewhere to go to school. Even if new, privately-run schools open “for the poor,” and even if those schools aren’t able to attract “rich” kids, you still have the advantage of those schools being privately run vs. government-run. And, those poor kids will still have the opportunity to select different schools, such as already-existing Catholic schools and such. I put “rich” in quotes, because what we are really talking about here aren’t rich kids, but in fact, “not poor” kids, who are mostly middle-class. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/55 "2008-01-29T16:11:11Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Do they ever? [/QUOTE] It’s “strong”. It’s always “strong” in these speeches. From Bush last night: > [@](#): > > And so long as we continue to trust the people, our nation will prosper, our liberty will be secure, and the state of our Union will remain strong. Just once I’d like to hear something besides “strong”. How about “indifferent”, “weakening”, or “aroused”? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/56 "2008-01-29T16:12:09Z")
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen] I forget, when did it become law that private schools had to accept special needs kids? ESL kids? Kids with a troubled history? Oh, that’s right. They don’t. They can kick them out if they don’t like their hair. [/QUOTE] So can [public schools](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/010907dnmetlonghair.10a9a0a.html). ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/57 "2008-01-29T16:25:55Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] Nonsense – of course there would still be children left behind. As it stands now, _all_ children get a free education, rich and poor alike. [/QUOTE] True, but the rich usually get good educations and the poor usually get crappy educations. > [@](#): > > Just because _some_ students have parents who can afford to pay for their kids’ education outside of the public school system, doesn’t relieve the government of its responsibility to provide _quality_ education for those who can’t. The government’s responsibility to provide the education would still be met. Just because they don’t run the schools and hire the teachers, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t ensuring that children receive an education. > [@](#): > > Every one of my tax dollars that are removed from my local, public school and get funneled into a private (often religious) schools, means further dilapidation of buildings, fewer books and accessories, less-qualified teachers, larger classrooms and a decline in overall performance. As the tax dollars are funneled away, so are some the students. With needed fewer resources to educate fewer students, you should be able to get higher-quality resources, including teachers, if the government really knows what they’re doing. > [@](#): > > I suggest that if Republicans want poor kids to have greater access to _private_ schools, that you get busy in your local communities and do fund raisers or start scholarship funds. You should not have the right to destroy neighborhood schools to line the pockets of your private institutions. Believe me, it’s not just Republicans who want poor kids to have greater access to private schools. In my town the vast majority of people are Democrats, or farther to the left than that, and the Catholic schools are packed with kids who normally couldn’t afford to go to private school, because of the fundraisers and scholarships you mention. Parents want QUALITY education for their children, no matter who they are. And, by the way, those schools are “neighborhood” schools, too. They are in the neighborhood, and neighborhood children attend them. Does it really sound right to you that we should raise private funds to help poor children go to private schools, and still keep their share of the tax dollars in your school to help educate your children? ---
**Author:** ![sockswsandals](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@sockswsandals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sockswsandals)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/58 "2008-01-29T16:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] In response to your straw men? Sure. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I think perhaps **Squink** realized this may be a complete waste of time to continue this, but I would _really_ like something more than a few lines telling me that I am wrong. Anyone can tell me that. Please describe to me in what way taking money from publicly funded schools so that _a portion_ of children can _potentially_ benefit from an education at a private school in _any way_ helps the other children who still attend the public schools. These would be the same public schools who are now receiving less money as direct result of those funds going to assist private school’s enrollment. I’m looking for details. I’ve read what you had to say, and what you have said only amount to assertions. Assert all you would like. I would enjoy a line of reasoning we can all follow to see how this logically works out. Just act normally, and assume I am a complete moron who can’t see the benefit of conservative thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/59 "2008-01-29T16:28:24Z")
So on the Diane Rehm show this morning, they were breaking down some of the numbers. Coincidentally, ether are 15 million millionaires in America and also 15 million poor children. If you divide the amount given to each camp (poor kids in the initiative he spoke about last night and extending the tax cuts like he did last night), that’s 20 bucks a poor kid and 280 thousand a millionaire. This show was on at 10 o’clock today, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/60 "2008-01-29T16:32:14Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] \ Does it really sound right to you that we should raise private funds to help poor children go to private schools, and still keep their share of the tax dollars in your school to help educate your children? [/QUOTE] I think we should fund the hell out of the school system and take care of it (which is a vague statement, I realize). If you want to pay to send your kids to a private school, that’s fine, but you’re still paying for the public school system. Yes, that does sound right to me (if that’s what you’re asking). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417.md?page=4)