# Key points in the State of the Union **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417 "2008-01-29T04:22:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![sockswsandals](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@sockswsandals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sockswsandals)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/101 "2008-01-30T16:44:20Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] The assertion that there is no possible way to educate children except thru a public school is merely ridiculous, and requires no more refutation than simply to point that out. [/QUOTE] I think we are talking past each other here, and making prodigious use of the time-honored tradition of putting words in each other’s mouths. (Note that I am saying I am guilty of this as well). I don’t see anywhere in this thread where myself or others have either plainly stated or even implied that the public education system is _the only way_ to educate children. Private schools are a great option for anyone who can find a school they like, and can afford it. For the rest of us who can’t or won’t, I like to think that a properly funded public education system can suffice to provide the basic level of education necessary to allow all children the chance to excel in their future lives and careers. All I am arguing is that I do not believe that by simplying giving some tax dollars to parents to send their kid to private school is going to solve our perceived problems with the education system. There will always be problems with the education system no matter what. I simply hold the opinion that a well-funded government run public system is better than throwing money at the parents and saying “Well we tried to help them out, but hey, if things didn’t work out it is their fault not ours. They weren’t personally responsible enough”. Putting the burden on potentially unrepsonsible parents does nothing for the _children_ who have almost no control in regards to their early education. Oi, the hijacking. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/102 "2008-01-30T17:01:52Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Of course, kids of parents who don’t care two shakes for their education are still stuck in crappy schools, but that’s pretty much the case now - at least their educationally-minded peers will have new opportunities. [/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that under a voucher system, the only thing standing between a low income student and a quality private school education is the attitude of their parents? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/103 "2008-01-30T17:28:09Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Personal experience. Also, please read the cite. Accreditation requirements for private schools vary by [state](http://www.ed.gov/pubs/RegPrivSchl/intro.html). Again, you may want to actually read the cites provided. [/quote] As a parent with children in private schools, i’m assuming from this post. I’m glad that you have personal experience of exactly one private school, as well as the extent of knowledge you got when you shopped around. I have to admit, your personal experience of less than ten (I would guess) private schools in the country is greater than my own personal experience of none. But we are both pretty paltry when compared to all private schools - especially considering that they are more likely to differ between them than public schools are. I won’t claim to have read all of the cite, since like I said, it’s quite a big site. But I don’t see that it makes your point on this. As pointed out on the site, accreditation is entirely voluntary. What percentage of the private schools in the country are signed up to this system? Might I have stats on how many pupils are in accredited private school versus non-accredited? Generally I try to make sure that when I question another’s commitment to cites that I have provided any i’ve been asked for (or at least, given reasons why not). > [@](#): > > Parents are free to withdraw their children from private schools that misuse funds, or do not perform to the level expected by parents. This is not always the case for public schools. Thus, private schools are by necessity more accountable than public schools. One of the purposes of a voucher system is to allow parents the same option of accountability for public schools as for private. If parents feel their public school is failing, they are not constrained by finances from pulling their child out and sending him to another school. They are indeed free withdraw their children in those cases. Tell me, how might a parent know a school is misusing funds? I don’t recall private schools being under any obligation to provide financial information. As to performing to the level expected by parents - this assumes that parents are able to tell what would be appropriate for the amount of money given. In order to be accountable in this way, parents would need access to this information, which would be an entirely voluntary thing on the part of the school; it’s certainly not a necessity. I admire the ideal, of getting more and better choices. This approach would certainly give parents more choice, I have no argument against that. But better? It’s a mystery bag. The apperance of being better is entirely in the hands of the school itself. I would not be all that comfortable giving a considerable amount of money and entrusting the teaching of my kids (not that I have any) to schools which entirely control their own performance figures. > [@](#): > > Public schools? Do you mean private? I do indeed. :smack: Thanks for pointing it out. > [@](#): > > Well, there, of course, you are quite straightforwardly wrong. Private schools currently use standardized testing. My children both attended a private school for several years. Both took a number of standardized achievement tests. Their private school as a whole scored significantly higher on those tests than any of the local public schools, which draw on the same geographic population. All of them do, do they? If your suggestion is that the voucher system should be limited only to private schools that do use standardised testing, then that I could much more easily get behind. Is that what the proposed system in question does? > [@](#): > > Clearly. But I do retain the ability to refrain from sarcasm. And that I learnt in a public school. 😉 > [@](#): > > Your first two points are wrong, and the last incomprehensible. Accountability only works if parents are able to actually look at finances. Private schools are under no obligation to provide this information. Your points rely on private schools being honest and open. I’m sure many are. I’m not so sure all are. If my last point is incomprehensible, I’m sorry I put it so badly. All I mean is that if yea-number of private schools across the country are valid for such vouchers, and the money is provided by the government, then the government will require paperwork for each single one of those schools in terms of how much money they are getting that, unlike with public schools, can’t itself be easily standardised. > [@](#): > > Again, that simply isn’t the case - all the teachers in my children’s schools, public and private, have been college graduates, licensed as teachers. Again, does this apply to all private schools? Is the selection process in terms of potential criminal backgrounds as rigorous as it is for public schools (again, in all schools)? Your position does seem to require knowledge of all private schools that would benefit, or an acceptance that you don’t need to know. I’m assuming it’s the latter. > [@](#): > > Which has nothing whatever to do with what benefits the public school bureaucracy or the teachers’ union. This post was in reply to a post of **BrainGlutton’s** , not me. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/104 "2008-01-30T17:38:11Z")
[QUOTE=sockswsandals] I don’t see anywhere in this thread where myself or others have either plainly stated or even implied that the public education system is _the only way_ to educate children. [/quote] **Mosier** ’s post is quoted right above mine. > [@](#): > > Private schools are a great option for anyone who can find a school they like, and can afford it. And a voucher system removes the “can afford it” constraint. > [@](#): > > For the rest of us who can’t or won’t, I like to think that a properly funded public education system can suffice to provide the basic level of education necessary to allow all children the chance to excel in their future lives and careers. Well, that’s the problem. Education spending has [increased significantly](http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html) over the last few years. But we are [by no means](http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/16/sprj.sch.education.compared.ap/) getting the best return for our spending. So “proper funding” is hardly the issue. Spending more money is a red herring - or more properly, an attempt by teachers’ unions to get more money for doing the same mediocre job, and avoid the hard questions of what needs to change. > [@](#): > > Putting the burden on potentially unrepsonsible parents does nothing for the _children_ who have almost no control in regards to their early education. As opposed to potentially unresponsive bureaucrats? I think it does. Parents _should_ have control over their children’s education. [Parental involvement is a strongly determinative factor in student educational achievement.](http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED315199&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED315199) Much [more](http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:n3iDh53x4ywJ:www.michigan.gov/documents/Final_Parent_Involvement_Fact_Sheet_14732_7.pdf+parental+involvement+education&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us) than spending levels. But teachers’ unions and educational bureaucrats always want to spend more, and resist giving control to parents. We are simply supposed to pay up, show up at conferences, and always vote Yes on referenda. No matter what was done with the old money. True story - we had a referendum on a tax increase to reduce class sizes. It was explicitly mentioned that reducing class sizes was the purpose of the tax increase. We voted on it; it passed. My wife went to the school board meeting shortly afterward, and asked how they were going to spend the money and reduce class sizes. They all laughed, and spent the money to build a facility to store the lawn care equipment for the school district. Shortly afterwards, there was an incident where a student at the grade school down the block from us attacked two other students in two separate incidents. He was emotionally disturbed. He was not expelled. The two students he attacked were called into the principal’s office, and were _warned not to tell their parents of the incidents_. This is the school we were expected to send our children. Fortunately, even in the absense of a voucher system, we could afford to send our children to a private school. This is the one I mentioned earlier, whose performance on all standardized tests significantly exceeds that of every other public school in the district. Tuition there is not significantly higher than per capita spending on students in our district, so, although I still had to pay taxes for a school system my children did not use, we could manage it. Most of the other kids in our neighborhood, however, could not afford it, and were stuck. Would it not have been better if everyone had the same options that I did? Don’t you think there would be more responsiveness if parents could say, in effect, “no, I would rather have smaller classes than better lawn care” and make their decisions felt? I do. Thus I support vouchers. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/105 "2008-01-30T17:45:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I won’t claim to have read all of the cite, since like I said, it’s quite a big site. But I don’t see that it makes your point on this. As pointed out on the site, accreditation is entirely voluntary. What percentage of the private schools in the country are signed up to this system? Might I have stats on how many pupils are in accredited private school versus non-accredited? Frankly, no, you can’t. If you aren’t going to read the cites already provided and still express an opinion on them, there is no point in continuing the discussion with you. If you really don’t know any more about private school accreditation, financial accountability, or if private schools use standardized tests, well, that is not my fault. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/106 "2008-01-30T17:58:31Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Do they ever? [/QUOTE] Once upon a [time](http://www.infoplease.com/t/hist/state-of-the-union/74.html). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/107 "2008-01-30T18:05:07Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Frankly, no, you can’t. If you aren’t going to read the cites already provided and still express an opinion on them, there is no point in continuing the discussion with you. [/quote] I’ve expressed an opinion based on the parts I have read, which I believe is the appropriate parts. I could be wrong, of course; is it too much to ask that you actually quote the parts you believe relevant rather than merely citing an entire website and ask me to read all of it? Like I said, I believe i’ve read the relevant parts, and as such am able to have an opinion, with the proviso that I could have missed something. > [@](#): > > If you really don’t know any more about private school accreditation, financial accountability, or if private schools use standardized tests, well, that is not my fault. But you know none of these things either. You know only that which is appropriate to the schools you personally have looked at, and whichever parts of the site you consider relevant but you choose not to actually quote. Seriously, I think i’ve had a look at both the accreditation scheme’s website as well as the overall page on private school regulation by state, and I think I understand them. If you think i’m missing something important, please, post the relevant part. Of course, you are certainly under no obligation to educate me on this. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sockswsandals](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@sockswsandals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sockswsandals)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/108 "2008-01-30T19:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] Don’t be silly. People link the quality of public education to the quality of education in general in the same way that people link the unemployment rate with the strength of the economy. You can’t separate one from the other. You can argue that public education isn’t necessary, or valuable, but you’d be standing pretty much all by yourself. Even Republicans acknowledge that public education is important. Only you seem to be arguing that it might not be necessary to make sure EVERYONE has access to education, and that position is just ridiculous. When public schooling fails, education in general fails. That’s how it is, and there’s really no counter argument to that. If you want to successfully educate your entire population, you HAVE to keep a public education system healthy. Abandoning public schools is not an option. [/QUOTE] **Shodan** , perhaps I have poor reading comprehension skills because I attended public schools. Where does **Mosier** explicitly state or even imply that we as a society must exclusively employ the public education system to educate our children? He does state that public education is important, and that abandoning it would be to our detriment. I reiterate my assertion that perhaps we are putting words in each other’s mouths… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/109 "2008-01-30T19:47:15Z")
In the second and third sentences of the quote. He is saying that the only kind of education that counts in determining the quality of education is public education. Which is pretty obviously wrong. If we had a voucher system and 100% of students went to private schools, but test scores and student achievement went up, then the quality of education would have improved even if every public school in the nation closed. The second paragraph is possibly what’s confusing you (if you are really confused, and not a semantic nitpick). In that paragraph, **Mosier** conflates absence of public education with absence of access to education, and asserts that a failure of public education necessarily means a failure of education in general. Both are strawmen, obviously. I suspect **Mosier** realizes this, which may be why he attempts to forestall debate by announcing in advance that there is no counter-argument to his position. Which there is, and it is pretty obvious. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/110 "2008-01-30T22:33:19Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] If we had a voucher system and 100% of students went to private schools… [/QUOTE] How is it possible for 100% of students to go to private schools, unless the voucher pays for 100% of the tuition for low income students? Many students at the lower end of the economic scale cannot afford to pay \*any \* portion of the tuition, so if you pull dollars out of public schools and they continue to decline, they have no other option but to settle for whatever is available in public schools. Is this because their parents just don’t care about their children’s education? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/111 "2008-01-30T22:40:02Z")
Oh come off it - quit pretending you’ve never heard of a [counter-example](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Counterexample.html). Cripes, I have to explain every freaking thing to you people. Try reading for comprehension once in a while, m’kay? Sheesh. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/112 "2008-01-30T23:02:59Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Cripes, I have to explain every freaking thing to you people. [/QUOTE] So you still want to duck and weave without answering the question I have been asking you all day: Do you or do you not believe vouchers should pay 100% of the tuition to a private school for low income students? A simple yes or no answer will suffice. I predict you will supply neither, and just continue to spin a sarcastic cocoon around the worm of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/113 "2008-01-31T06:18:31Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] .Since, as far as we know, you don’t sit on the Supreme Court, your opinion doesn’t change the facts, now does it? Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, my opinion doesn’t change the fact, but I will keep the _faith_ by supporting the ACLU and remember that vouchers still have to defeat state obstacles. BTW, I am not against school reform. As is the norm, poor kids suffer the most from failing schools. Non-profit, regulated charter schools, public school choice offered through rigorous academies, and magnet schools for academically talented students are innovative school alternatives. I believe poverty has more to do with low student achievement than the public schools. The inadequate science and math curricula and the lack of qualified teachers needed to instruct high level mathematics and science doesn’t help America’s kids compete in a global world, either. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/114 "2008-01-31T08:24:12Z")
Excuse me. I have not read this thread, but I would be interested in knowing if President Bush mentioned New Orleans in his State of the Union Address this year. He did not mention it last year. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/115 "2008-01-31T14:43:06Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] I would be interested in knowing if President Bush mentioned New Orleans in his State of the Union Address this year. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Tonight the armies of compassion continue the march to a new day in the Gulf Coast. America honors the strength and resilience of the people of this region. We reaffirm our pledge to help them build stronger and better than before. And tonight I’m pleased to announce that in April we will host this year’s North American Summit of Canada, Mexico, and the United States in the great city of New Orleans. (Applause.) [http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/01/20080128-13.html](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/01/20080128-13.html) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/116 "2008-01-31T21:17:28Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I’ve expressed an opinion based on the parts I have read, which I believe is the appropriate parts. I could be wrong, of course; is it too much to ask that you actually quote the parts you believe relevant rather than merely citing an entire website and ask me to read all of it? [/QUOTE] [Meta-comment] Don’t you just _hate_ when people do that? It’s as if they were expecting you to (a) go through the linked material, (b) figure out what parts of it support their case, (c) construct their argument for them, and finally (d) rebut it. Hell, someone could link to Wikipedia. I’ve settled into a position of refusing to play along with that game. If the other person can’t be bothered to tell me what material at the link supports their position, and how it does so, then I sure can’t be bothered to do it for them. [/Meta] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/117 "2008-01-31T21:18:58Z")
Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417/118 "2008-01-31T21:29:11Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Cite? [/QUOTE] Rufus T. Firefly: You’re a brave man. Go and break through the lines. And remember while you’re out there risking eyestrain on websites, we’ll be in here thinking what a sucker you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/key-points-in-the-state-of-the-union/435417.md?page=5)