# Khalid Sheik Mohammed can be held indefinitely without trial, says Obama administration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743 "2010-11-15T15:10:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/41 "2010-11-15T17:39:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then I suppose you should provide the evidence that fuels your disbelief. I’m not sure how to provide such evidence. It isn’t like there’s a blog I can link to that details my conversations with Inside the Beltway types. For example, some months ago I had a discussion about asylum provisions of our immigration law and how those laws would effect an effort to move some detainees into the United States, which would probably require Congress to act to waive some of those immigration laws to allow the closure of GTMO to move forward. Although a cynic could look at that matter and say, “Oh, posh, it’s all politics and re-election efforts! Obama is just looking out for those damn Democrat lawmakers by not asking them to pass that law!” I would say that it is a technical and legal matter that is the root of the problem. I’m not sure how I can provide evidence that I am right and the cynics (and the WaPo) are wrong. > [@Shodan](#): > > Why not? If you are arrested by the police, and tortured for a confession, but in the intervening time you are in the lockup before a trial, does a governor get to say, “I declare a do-over! **Shodan** was never tortured and judges are instructed to pretend that all evidence stemming from his waterboarding at the hands of the LAPD didn’t come from torture!” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/42 "2010-11-15T17:40:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, please. Not the old argument about what someone might say if something else happened. Let’s stick to things that actually have happened. > > And, just to be clear, I don’t see anyone in the pro-Obama camp who would approve of him using waterboarding. They wouldn’t approve - they would indulge in a little of the tepid disapproval seen here and then change the subject as soon as they could. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > He’s just hamstrung by a cuntbag Congress. Up until next January, most of those cuntbags are Democratic cuntbags. I assume you wouldn’t accept as an excuse that Bush couldn’t release KSM because the GOP controlled Congress until 2006. Not to mention that your post is simply wrong. Obama could close down Gitmo and release those who can’t be tried by executive order. The Democrats in Congress who were foaming at Bush for holding detainees aren’t going to stop him (if they have any principles, which I grant you is questionable), FoxNews can’t stop him, nobody can stop him. But he doesn’t do it, despite his promise. I never bother starting threads about Obama of the sort we used to get about Bush, where the OP asks non-liberals “what does Bush have to do before you stop supporting him?” Because threads like this one tell me the answer. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/43 "2010-11-15T17:41:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Come on now. Mohammed was tortured, but he’s still a terrorist and this doesn’t make sense. This is the problem with torturing these guys in the first place: it makes it impossible to prosecute them properly. Didn’t the administration know that by June of 2009? Because I seem to recall a press conference on that day in which Robert Gibbs asserted that the Justice Department COULD prosecute Khalid Sheik Mohammed properly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/44 "2010-11-15T17:42:08Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I don’t think there’s much evidence that the reason for not trying KSM is that his waterboarding makes him unprosecutable. The Obama Admin seemed pretty sure they had enough to hang him with even without any evidence collected while he was being tortured or under threat of torture. While I generally agree on this, don’t forge that Holder is on record saying that if KSM was tried and found not guilty, that didn’t mean the administration had to let him go free. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/45 "2010-11-15T17:44:41Z")
Obama should have stuck to his guns and had a civilian trial in NYC. But a military trial is better than no trial at all. Keeping him indefinitely without trial is not acceptable in my view and tarnishes my feelings for Obama. Mind you, that image needs a LOT more tarnishing before even approaching my disdain for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/46 "2010-11-15T17:45:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you are arrested by the police, and tortured for a confession, but in the intervening time you are in the lockup before a trial, does a governor get to say, “I declare a do-over! **Shodan** was never tortured and judges are instructed to pretend that all evidence stemming from his waterboarding at the hands of the LAPD didn’t come from torture!” AFAICT, if it is a Republican governor, I should be released without trial, and if I am not, the governor is evil and should be impeached and sent before the World Court at the Hague and so on. If it is a Democrat, I can be held indefinitely, and it’s the fault of the previous governor. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/47 "2010-11-15T17:48:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It would be equally nice, and not nearly as impractical, for SDMB participants guilty of the same error to admit it. But I don’t think many people made an error. Most were not saying the policy was wrong because Bush did it. The policy is wrong if Jesus Christ himself was doing it. I’m not American but you’d have to look hard to find a bigger supporter of Obama. I’m disgusted that his admin are also standing behind holding anyone indefinitely without trial. If there is not enough evidence then the man has to be released. If the evidence is tainted by torture then the man has to be released. This isn’t nice or an easy decision to make but democracy isn’t easy, Dictatorship and opression is easy. No western power should be doing this no matter who the accused is and no matter what his crime. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/48 "2010-11-15T17:50:52Z")
Let me ask this: is there any way Congress could block a civilian criminal trial? ETA: Like **BobLibDem** , I say better a military tribunal than no trial at all. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/49 "2010-11-15T17:51:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He could use the Military Tribunal System in Gitmo. > [@Simplicio](#): > > True, but Obama is also on the record as opposing those, so it doesn’t really keep **Bricker** from calling him evil. Plus, as a practical matter, I’d argue that the Military Tribunal System sets a worse precedent then the current policy of detention as POWs (IIRC, the tribunals got tossed by the SCOTUS the last time they were tried, though they were later retooled by further legislation, indefinite detention has sadly already been found to be kosher). I don’t understand why that’s not an option, either. I don’t think Obama is opposed, he just recently used the military commissions (tried Khadr who was a 15 year old kid during the crime no less). However, the article stated a reason against it as “little internal support for resurrecting a military prosecution at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba” because it would “alienate liberal supporters.” That’s kind of misleading because he wouldn’t be resurrecting it. If trying Khadr doesn’t alienate liberal supporters, trying the matermind of 9/11 can’t possibly; surely you can’t alienate any further. Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/50 "2010-11-15T17:52:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > AFAICT, if it is a Republican governor, I should be released without trial, and if I am not, the governor is evil and should be impeached and sent before the World Court at the Hague and so on. If it is a Democrat, I can be held indefinitely, and it’s the fault of the previous governor. It’s so easy to be funny in a debate when there are no substantive points one attempts to make. (ETA: I did laugh a bit at that comment.) But do you have any positions on this issue that you wish to put forward for debate? Or is it just a sense of whimsy that restricts your comments to making “neener-neener” noises in the general direction of lib’rlz? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/51 "2010-11-15T17:58:45Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > You do know that there is jack-all in the Constitution which forbids it? Or even which suggests it’s a bad idea? > > I’m not even saying it is a good idea (not hre, not today), but the idea that it is somehow against the Constitution, or any other law, is ridiculous. Bullshit. Off the top of my head, see Amendments 5,6, and 8 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/52 "2010-11-15T17:59:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Come on now. Mohammed was tortured, but he’s still a terrorist and this doesn’t make sense. This is the problem with torturing these guys in the first place: it makes it impossible to prosecute them properly. When was he proven to be a terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/53 "2010-11-15T18:01:08Z")
Yet another poor decision by Obama. These stalling tactics and his spineless inability to move forward are once again, depressing. Of course that seems to be the majority of responses from posters here, so I’m not sure this call out thread is necessary. But what do I know. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/54 "2010-11-15T18:03:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They wouldn’t approve - they would indulge in a little of the tepid disapproval seen here and then change the subject as soon as they could. Up until next January, most of those cuntbags are Democratic cuntbags. Correct. So what? > [@](#): > > I assume you wouldn’t accept as an excuse that Bush couldn’t release KSM because the GOP controlled Congress until 2006. Sure I would, if Bush had wanted and attempted to hold a criminal trial, and was stymied by Congress, I would have blamed Congress, not Bush. Bush never made any effort, though. Obama did. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/55 "2010-11-15T18:04:52Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > You do know that there is jack-all in the Constitution which forbids it? Or even which suggests it’s a bad idea? What do the words “speedy trial” mean to you? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/56 "2010-11-15T18:05:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When was he proven to be a terrorist? [Apparent confessions.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6452789.stm) Asking when KSM was proven to be a terrorist is like asking when George Bush was found guilty of being an idiot. Truth can reside outside a court decision, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/57 "2010-11-15T18:07:20Z")
You can’t impose criminal punishments without a legitimate conviction, and those alleged confessions were made under torture. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/58 "2010-11-15T18:09:22Z")
Yeah, but you can sure _not_ give him a pile of money and a house. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/59 "2010-11-15T18:10:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [Apparent confessions.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6452789.stm) To quote that article, “in a hearing at Guantanamo Bay”; in other words, when he’s in the hands of torturers. Which makes all those “confessions” meaningless. I’m sure he’d have confessed to being a lizard alien too. He might be a terrorist, but nothing said while he’s at Guantanamo can qualify as evidence of that or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743/60 "2010-11-15T18:12:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, but you can sure _not_ give him a pile of money and a house. We don’t _have_ to, no, but I would enjoy the entertainment value of watching teabagger heads explode. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheik-mohammed-can-be-held-indefinitely-without-trial-says-obama-administration/560743.md?page=4)