# Khalid Sheikh Mohammed admits masterminding 9/11 (and 30 other plots) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029 "2007-03-15T13:43:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/41 "2007-03-16T19:40:41Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] Induction Fallacy. By your (il)logic the entire US Criminal Justice System should be thrown out because a detective whacked a suspected sneak-thief with a phone book in order to extract a list of accomplices. [/quote] Bad analogy. If it were known that all police in the U.S. condone and systematically employ torture, then yes the entire justice system _would_ be suspect. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/42 "2007-03-16T19:58:56Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] I invite you to re-read the post(s) to which you appear to be responding. I have not denied Khalid was mistreated by the CIA. In fact, there is credible evidence he was prepared for and quite good at receiving many forms of _true_ torture, such that a reasonably mild technique known as “waterboarding”\* was inefficient in his case. - As a form of training, many echelons of the US Military, including aviators, have undergone various and structured forms of detention, deprivation and information extraction, one of which is waterboarding. While incredibly unpleasant, if one is aware there is little risk of death, it does not rise to the level of punishment inflicted by sustained ambient cold temperatures. [/QUOTE] You’re kidding, right? “Reasonably mild”? Were you aware that CIA officers themselves only lasted an average of 14 seconds of being subjected to waterboarding? And THAT’S presumably when they _knew_ they were safe. Sorry, but you’re quite wrong about this. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/43 "2007-03-16T20:14:30Z")
I asked the same question. See post 33, although I think “mild” is a poor choice of words for a tactic that makes people think they’re drowning. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/44 "2007-03-16T20:32:14Z")
> [@lowbrass](#): > > You’re kidding, right? “Reasonably mild”? Were you aware that CIA officers themselves only lasted an average of 14 seconds of being subjected to waterboarding? And THAT’S presumably when they knew they were safe. Right, so it was an elective procedure. Let me ask you: if you knew national security weren’t on the line and this were only a drill where you could “tap out” without penalty, wouldn’t you? > [@](#): > > Sorry, but you’re quite wrong about this. Sorry, but you haven’t proved anything. And while we’re spitballing here, if I had the choice between waterboarding and the strappado or waterboarding and sustained extreme cold, I’d take waterboarding. Speedy results are anticipated so it’s a perfect time to drop a honey pot; most combatants who’ve been through SERE or SERE-like training program themselves with at least one. [QUOTE=lowbrass] If it were known that all police in the U.S. condone and systematically employ torture, then yes the entire justice system would be suspect. [/quote] Do all Americans condone and systematically employ torture? I’d like to see a cite for that. Regardless, read up on the Exclusionary Rule and my extrapolation stands. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/45 "2007-03-16T20:50:02Z")
You just can’t lend any credence to confessions extracted by torture and considering our behaviour (specifically this adminsitration’s behaviour), we have to presume torture. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/46 "2007-03-16T20:52:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Do all Americans condone and systematically employ torture? You may think you do not, but look at it from another angle. Bush was elected, and then reinstalled, to those who oppose the US (lets not get into a debate about wether its the US or world peace being opposed here) they have a slim grasp of what democracy is about and how it works, their view is that the US president was elected by the US population. As far as they are concerned, then yes, all Americans do condone and employ torture, otherwise they would be so outraged at this violation of all civilised standards that they would rise up and remove the torturers and their leaders. This is the size of the task that the US now faces to win over populations, and no amount of bombs, and bullets is ever going to convince them otherwise, it’ll only serve to confirm their worst suspicions. As each day draws on, the propagandists hardly have to break sweat, because this adminstration is doing a much better job than they ever could, worse still, much of it isn’t even propaganda, its actually the truth. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/47 "2007-03-16T21:09:40Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] Right, so it was an elective procedure. Let me ask you: if you knew national security weren’t on the line and this were only a drill where you could “tap out” without penalty, wouldn’t you? [/quote] Now you’re just making absurd excuses. If the procedure were truly “mild”, then no, I would not end the experiment prematurely. If you want to stick your head in the sand and continue to contend that a procedure under which trained CIA people could only last 14 seconds is “mild”, then I have nothing further to say to you on this. > [@](#): > > Sorry, but you haven’t proved anything. And while we’re spitballing here, if I had the choice between waterboarding and the strappado or waterboarding and sustained extreme cold, I’d take waterboarding. Speaking of proving anything, exactly what is that supposed to prove? I’d rather have a car battery hooked up to my nutsack than have needles shoved in my eyes; that doesn’t mean either is mild. > [@](#): > > Speedy results are anticipated so it’s a perfect time to drop a honey pot; most combatants who’ve been through SERE or SERE-like training program themselves with at least one. And that proves waterboarding is “mild” how, exactly? > [@](#): > > Do all Americans condone and systematically employ torture? Strawman. The Bush administration condones torture, and explicit memos exist to document this fact. It has been systematically employed by the U.S. military on detainees. The fact that neocons want to re-define “torture” as whatever _they_ say it is does not change that fact. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/48 "2007-03-16T22:10:11Z")
[QUOTE=casdave] As far as they are concerned, then yes, all Americans do condone and employ torture, otherwise they would be so outraged at this violation of all civilised standards that they would rise up and remove the torturers and their leaders. [/QUOTE] Then they are ignorant of our system, for that action is called Revolution. American citizens will never come close to Revolution until the majority are directly and adversely affected by the US’s trespasses. None of which, by the way, changes the fact that under the custody of the US, Khalid’s neck is remarkably unstretched, and as an Enemy Combatant (3 hots and a cot, much more than some peeps got) it may well stay that way indefinitely. Meanwhile, respectfully, a violent murderer has made a good man _his_ propagandist. > [@lowbrass](#): > > And that proves waterboarding is “mild” how, exactly? To someone hardened like Khalid, a well-known tactic that causes neither permanent physical nor psychological effects hardly rises to the category of mistreatment, let alone torture. So yes, it’s mild. And none of this washes away the fact that he was only waterboarded to make him “name names.” He wasn’t in an Iron Maiden at his hearing. No one hooked his nutsack to a car battery to compel him to saw off a man’s head before a video camera. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/49 "2007-03-17T03:39:44Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] Right, so it was an elective procedure. Let me ask you: if you knew national security weren’t on the line and this were only a drill where you could “tap out” without penalty, wouldn’t you? [/QUOTE] I would think there would be a penalty. I would think that participants in the exercise would be required to act as if national security **was** on the line. Otherwise, what would be the point of the training? Plus, I did not follow the links, so I don’t know if the participants were subjected to just the act of waterboarding, or if it was part of a full-interrogation exercise. If the former, then 14 seconds could have been their “tapping out.” Or did you mean “tapping out” as declining to participate in the exercise? Which, as I said, would probably not be an option. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/50 "2007-03-17T05:20:40Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] a well-known tactic that causes neither permanent physical nor psychological effects [/QUOTE] Cite please ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/51 "2007-03-17T12:01:21Z")
We only have the US word that the only pressure he underwent was waterboarding. We do not know if there was more, three years seems to be a long time to administer a course of waterboarding. Anyhow, reality is that waterbaording is torture, like it or not, and you seem to portray it as acceptable. You limits may rest at waterboarding, but if you felt you could get just a little bit more information, with just a little bit more pressure, how tempted would you be ? Would you be inclined to believe the denials of the victim, after all, your operatives tell you he is a bad 'un. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/52 "2007-03-17T13:06:06Z")
To all: This administration has failed so abysmally that a scumsucker like Khalid’s confession raises doubt in the mind of even the most non-partisan of Americans. It used to be that we held the moral high ground. Now even known terrorists can elicit doubt of our country in the mind of many average citizens. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029/53 "2007-03-17T13:07:47Z")
[QUOTE=Frostillicus] Was that the plot that involved destroying the Brooklyn Bridge with blowtorches? Thank God we dodged that bullet! [/QUOTE] Yup! > [@](#): > > [**Ohio trucker joined al Qaeda jihad**](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/19/alqaeda.plea/) > > Iyman Faris, 34, checked out the chances of destroying a New York bridge and tried to buy equipment for proposed al Qaeda attacks … Sources told CNN that al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who is in U.S. custody, told his interrogators the target was the 116-year-old Brooklyn Bridge. … While continuing his job as an independent trucker, Faris was charged with checking whether a New York City bridge could be destroyed by cutting the suspension cables. > > He was also ordered to buy equipment for the bridge plot and for the second arm of the simultaneous attack – derailing a train in the Washington, D.C., area. > > In communications to al Qaeda, Faris was told to refer to gas cutters, which would be used to burn through the bridge cables, as “gas stations” and tools for the derailing as “mechanics shops.” > > Faris researched the bridge on the Internet and asked a friend about how to obtain the gas cutters. He also traveled to New York to check out the bridge and evaluate the chances of a successful attack. > > In coded messages, sent to his al Qaeda handlers via an unnamed third party in the United States, Faris said he was still trying to obtain “gas stations” and “mechanics shops” – or he was still working on the project. > > After scouting the bridge and deciding its security and structure meant the plot was unlikely to succeed, he passed along a message to al Qaeda in early 2003 that said “the weather is too hot.” > > Kelly credited the posting of police in marked cars at the ends of the Brooklyn Bridge, where its suspension cables are considered most vulnerable to attack, for helping foil the plot. … In Pakistan, Faris helped procure 2,000 sleeping bags for use by al Qaeda … I heard a rumor that he was trying to buy a giant hacksaw to take down the Gateway Arch too! God help us if they ever get a hold of [this](http://home.nc.rr.com/tuco/looney/acme/acme.html) catalog! CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-admits-masterminding-9-11-and-30-other-plots/396029.md?page=2)