# kickstarter policy and an assault-y PUA primer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581 "2013-06-21T19:56:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/41 "2013-06-24T05:16:01Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Hm. Even after spelling it out, you still don’t understand my argument, or The Bill of Rights. It’s funny you accuse me of hating America, when you are happy to strip citizens of their rights to free assembly, but I doubt you’ll understand _why_ that’s funny, so nevermind. > > Well, Mein Kampf has historical value, so I think you can better justify selling it. But overall, yes, I encourage (with my dollars and my voice) companies to stop selling things I think are evil. I’ve even boycotted places because I think the company’s owners have evil beliefs. Why shouldn’t I? I _also_ have freedom of speech and of association, and I can use them to avoid being around that which I feel is harmful to society. > . I guess that since the 1st Ad just applies to the government, it’s OK for us to make fun of other’s religous beliefs and faiths. :rolleyes:I guess was just a silly Frenchman that said _"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it._" so that’s not something us Americans have to take to heart. :rolleyes: And it was only a fantasy writer that said "\*“Because if you don’t stand up for the stuff you don’t like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you’ve already lost.” \* But you see Freedom of Speech is such a sacred thing that I believe it is just not the government that is restricted. We all must defend the rights of assholes to say asshole things. But you don’t think that. You clearly believe that you have the One True Way, that all others are wrong, and that you must squash wrong speech and wrong think. This way of thought is abhorrant to me. Let the asshole shout his garbage from the rooftops. ---
**Author:** ![Tracijo67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@Tracijo67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracijo67)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/42 "2013-06-24T05:28:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I guess that since the 1st Ad just applies to the government, it’s OK for us to make fun of other’s religous beliefs and faiths. :rolleyes:I guess was just a silly Frenchman that said _"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it._" so that’s not something us Americans have to take to heart. :rolleyes: And it was only a fantasy writer that said "\*“Because if you don’t stand up for the stuff you don’t like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you’ve already lost.” \* > > But you see Freedom of Speech is such a sacred thing that I believe it is just not the government that is restricted. We all must defend the rights of assholes to say asshole things. But you don’t think that. You clearly believe that you have the One True Way, that all others are wrong, and that you must squash wrong speech and wrong think. This way of thought is abhorrant to me. Let the asshole shout his garbage from the rooftops. Once again, with emphasis: refusing to associate with a creep (serving as an outlet to market his product) is not the same as censorship. He is free to find like-minded revolting creeps to market his books. Or he can self-publish. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/43 "2013-06-24T10:01:36Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The point, from what I gather, is to push until she clearly says no. That’s creepy, but not assault. If you are making out and you receive signals that going further would be ok, then picking a woman up and putting her in your lap may not be assault. But you don’t have to have said no before it is even possible for it to be assault. This passage: > [@](#): > > Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick. describes, word for word, the way I was assaulted. We weren’t making out, we were playing draughts, I shit you not. Obviously the “no” came once he had already done that. It’s not maybe-possibly-rapey-territory-kinda-sorta. \*\*\*It is \*\*\*sexual assault. It doesn’t matter if this entire passage was surrounded by disclaimers about backing off once she says no, the assault has already been committed. As **DT** says, unless the mysterious “context” was “haha, that’s what not to do, jokes, amirite”, there is no context that makes it not-assault. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/44 "2013-06-24T10:29:52Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > This passage: > … > describes, word for word, the way I was assaulted. We weren’t making out, we were playing draughts, I shit you not. Obviously the “no” came once he had already done that. It is very bad what happened to you, and I don’t advocate it obviously. But whether the book is in a similar context to what you describe is critical here. I doubt that it says: Hey, like that girl who works in your local coffee shop? _Put her hand on your cock_. But I haven’t read it, so I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/45 "2013-06-24T10:45:27Z")
The problem is the idea of “don’t ask for permission” + “being a leader”, combined with the thought that pushing _until_ she says no makes it not-assault. Just because no hasn’t been said yet, doesn’t mean it isn’t assault. Just to be clear: obviously if my SO does this it isn’t assault. But by default we are not talking about that sort of situation. It isn’t a book about how to spice it up with a partner you trust. It’s a book about how to approach women who are yet undecided about whether they _want_ to put their hand on your penis, and it tells you to make the decision for them. That is, by definition, assault. The only excusing context would be if it were a joke about what not to do. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/46 "2013-06-24T11:25:29Z")
I vote for creepy: it treats all interaction with women like some BDSM scenario where all she has to do is say the safeword and you’ll stop abusing her (how nice of you). If your technique requires your targets to fend you off, you are at the very least an asshole and well on your way to “rapist”. But I think Kickstarter handled it as well as they could given their limitations. One hopes that they will indeed have a “freeze” option in future. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/47 "2013-06-24T11:31:01Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I vote for creepy: it treats all interaction with women like some BDSM scenario where all she has to do is say the safeword and you’ll stop abusing her Well, “take a break and try again later” anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/48 "2013-06-24T11:38:16Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Well, “take a break and try again later” anyways. Sexual assault: now with a snooze button! ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/49 "2013-06-24T12:02:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But you see Freedom of Speech is such a sacred thing that I believe it is just not the government that is restricted. We all must defend the rights of assholes to say asshole things. But you don’t think that. You clearly believe that you have the One True Way, that all others are wrong, and that you must squash wrong speech and wrong think. This way of thought is abhorrant to me. Let the asshole shout his garbage from the rooftops. So if someone wants to put a “Faggots and Kykes go to Hell! Repent!” sign on my front lawn, and I tell them no–or take it down after they drive away–_I’m_ the one that’s acting immorally? How far am I compelled to go to provide a venue for speech I disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/50 "2013-06-24T12:07:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I vote for creepy: it treats all interaction with women like some BDSM scenario where all she has to do is say the safeword and you’ll stop abusing her (how nice of you). If your technique requires your targets to fend you off, you are at the very least an asshole and well on your way to “rapist”. > > But I think Kickstarter handled it as well as they could given their limitations. One hopes that they will indeed have a “freeze” option in future. Worse. It’s based on this idea that a lot of women are socialized against saying the direct “yes”, but anyone aware of that has to be aware of the fact that a lot of women are pretty heavily socialized against staying a direct “No” as well. By making a direct “no” the only “safeword”, it means that they sometimes won’t hear it. She’s frozen stiff, she’s closed her eyes, her cheeks are wet, she’s shaking? As long as she hasn’t said the magic word, you’re ethically in the clear. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/51 "2013-06-24T13:42:37Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Worse. It’s based on this idea that a lot of women are socialized against saying the direct “yes”, but anyone aware of that has to be aware of the fact that a lot of women are pretty heavily socialized against staying a direct “No” as well. By making a direct “no” the only “safeword”, it means that they sometimes won’t hear it. She’s frozen stiff, she’s closed her eyes, her cheeks are wet, she’s shaking? As long as she hasn’t said the magic word, you’re ethically in the clear. And determines that every woman you(the PUA) is with wants sex as bad as you, only social conditioning prevents her from indulging. It doesn’t allow for the woman who finds you unattractive, who is turned off by your aggression and pat lines, who finds your constant pawing to be a turn off, who might want to have sex after she gets to know you better just doesn’t want to tonight, doesn’t have protection with her, is on her period, just isn’t feeling it, or was so disgusted by the sight of the cock you presented her with that she’d rather masturbate and sleep alone for the rest of her life than risk another fend-off-the-rapist adventure with a PUA. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/52 "2013-06-24T13:54:38Z")
Again, I’d like to see the context for the line in question. I’ve been passionately kissing a girl and she’s guided my hand to her boobs. Then, later on, guided me on to kingdom fanjita. Presumably you would not say I had been sexually assaulted. I’m holding no opinion on this: of course some of the seduction artists are going to be scum, like so many fields. But I’m willing to entertain the possibility that the book is talking about a situation much closer to what I’ve just described. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/53 "2013-06-24T14:15:43Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > So if someone wants to put a “Faggots and Kykes go to Hell! Repent!” sign on my front lawn, and I tell them no–or take it down after they drive away–_I’m_ the one that’s acting immorally? How far am I compelled to go to provide a venue for speech I disagree with? Your analogy is flawed … you want to prevent other people from putting signs like that on THEIR lawns, a much dicier position. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/54 "2013-06-24T14:20:05Z")
The book sounds like it was written by the RL equivalent of one of those gamer dudes who thinks “Tits or GTFO!” is the proper way to welcome a female gamer to his group. It’s a shame it got all that publicity and made all that money, it’s only going to encourage him. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/55 "2013-06-24T14:30:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Your analogy is flawed … you want to prevent other people from putting signs like that on THEIR lawns, a much dicier position. If I am Kickstarter, isn’t it my lawn? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/56 "2013-06-24T22:28:26Z")
Slight hijack, but I just wanted to say in the abstract: A few people have implied upthread that when PUAs talk about “kino”, they mean groping. This isn’t the case (at least for any of the PUAs I’m aware of). It actually just means the normal, two-way, non-verbal communication that happens when people go out on dates. It begins with taps on the wrist or shoulder – the kind of touching that happens between anyone (work colleagues, relatives etc). As part of a date that’s going well, gradually the way he touches her, and she touches him, become more and more friendly to the point where they virtually (or actually) look like a couple. OTOH if at any point in this, if one person stops reciprocating then that may be sufficient feedback that they are not interested, without anyone needing to verbally reject anybody. This should come naturally, but it simply doesn’t to all people. _It doesn’t_. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/57 "2013-06-24T23:11:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I guess that since the 1st Ad just applies to the government, it’s OK for us to make fun of other’s religous beliefs and faiths. :rolleyes: Yes. It is. You’re just now learning this? > [@](#): > > I guess was just a silly Frenchman that said _"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it._" so that’s not something us Americans have to take to heart. :rolleyes: He has the right to say it. he just doesn’t have the right to have Kickstarter fund it. > [@](#): > > And it was only a fantasy writer that said "\*“Because if you don’t stand up for the stuff you don’t like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you’ve already lost.” \* Who is “they” in this quote? (Hint: it’s the government) > [@](#): > > But you see Freedom of Speech is such a sacred thing that I believe it is just not the government that is restricted. You can believe that, but that doesn’t make it so. > [@](#): > > We all must defend the rights of assholes to say asshole things. Yeah… no we don’t. I only have so much time to work on issues facing this nation, and in a country where children are going to bed hungry “asshole can’t get website to fund his rape book” doesn’t make the cut. Sorry (no I’m not) > [@](#): > > But you don’t think that. You clearly believe that you have the One True Way, that all others are wrong, and that you must squash wrong speech and wrong think. This is not an accurate description of my viewpoint. > [@](#): > > This way of thought is abhorrant to me. Funny, rape is abhorrent to me. Different strokes for different folks, eh? > [@](#): > > Let the asshole shout his garbage from the rooftops. As long as he’s shouting from his rooftop, fine by me. If he’s on my rooftop, I’m going to make him stop. And if he’s on the rooftop of an organization, I will ask them to have him leave, and if they don’t, I might not do business there anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/58 "2013-06-24T23:40:15Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If I am Kickstarter, isn’t it my lawn? As I see it, the transaction is between the author and his dupes …er, fans … it’s their transaction, not yours. You would presumably object if they tried to prevent a project that you liked getting Kickstarter funding. It’s very akin to censorship, preventing other people from reading things you don’t approve of. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/59 "2013-06-24T23:50:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > As I see it, the transaction is between the author and his dupes …er, fans … it’s their transaction, not yours. You would presumably object if they tried to prevent a project that you liked getting Kickstarter funding. It’s very akin to censorship, preventing other people from reading things you don’t approve of. No, I wouldn’t object to Kickstarter rejecting something I like. They aren’t required to support my causes. Let’s say you own a coffee shop and have a notice board you let people use to arrange meeting and such. A hate group starts using it to set up their meetings–the posters have swastikas and the group is known throughout the neighborhood for vicious, nasty rhetoric. Your customers are made genuinely uncomfortable by the signs for meetings, and start to avoid the place. Are you really saying that in that situation you’d have an ethical responsibility to keep letting the group advertise in your shop, even if it drove your shop out of business? Or are you saying the other customers have an ethical duty to keep shopping there, even if they flinch when they see the signs? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581/60 "2013-06-24T23:54:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > As I see it, the transaction is between the author and his dupes …er, fans … it’s their transaction, not yours. You would presumably object if they tried to prevent a project that you liked getting Kickstarter funding. It’s very akin to censorship, preventing other people from reading things you don’t approve of. No one is preventing the book from being read. People have expressed to Kickstarter that if they fund projects like this they will lose support. For that reason, and because Kickstarter finds the content morally objectionable, they are declining to host future, similar projects. Obviously authors of such material are free to seek funding elsewhere, or fund themselves. So, this situation is akin to censorship in the same way skipping breakfast one morning is akin to starving to death. Which is to say, not very. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kickstarter-policy-and-an-assault-y-pua-primer/661581.md?page=4)