# Kid guilty of dressing in black to be freed after 8 years in prison **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 19, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107 "2008-01-19T01:58:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/1 "2008-01-19T01:58:48Z")
> **[DNA points to new killer in '99 case - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/18/masters/index.html)** > > New evidence points to a different killer in the case of a Colorado man convicted in the sexual mutilation slaying of a woman when he was a teenager, the special prosecutor named to review the case said Friday. A 15 year old kid at the time of the killing was convicted with no, zero, physical evidence based mostly on the testimony of experts who weren’t supplied with exculpatory evidence by the Fort Collins Police Dept. He’s been in prison for eight years for a murder that he never should have been convicted of ever. This was a case of hysteria, much like the sexual assault convictions of the 1980’s, only this was a goth kid who had some violent drawings in his room and happened to live near the victim. New DNA evidence points to an early suspect who was the boyfriend of the victim. The real issue here is that the police witheld evidence that clearly cast reasonable doubt on the guilt of the kid. This kind of thing makes me sick, and I know there is at least one other case similar to this (West Memphis Three) although I admit that I know little about that case. This case is going to be covered on CNN at 10:00 eastern time in the US. [Denver Post Coverage](http://www.denverpost.com/ci_8011342) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/2 "2008-01-19T02:08:34Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] This was a case of hysteria, much like the sexual assault convictions of the 1980’s [/QUOTE] Could you be more specific? There were surely many thousands of sexual assault convictions in the 1980s, just like in every other decade. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/3 "2008-01-19T02:11:17Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Could you be more specific? There were surely many thousands of sexual assault convictions in the 1980s, just like in every other decade. [/QUOTE] I assume the OP is referring to the McMartin preschool case. > **[McMartin preschool trial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial)** > > The McMartin preschool trial was a day care sexual abuse case in the 1980s, prosecuted by the Los Angeles District Attorney, Ira Reiner. Members of the McMartin family, who operated a preschool in Manhattan Beach, California, were charged with hundreds of acts of sexual abuse of children in their care. Accusations were made in 1983, with arrests and the pretrial investigation taking place from 1984 to 1987, and trials running from 1987 to 1990. The case lasted seven years but resulted in no co ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/4 "2008-01-19T02:39:26Z")
Yes, the McMartin case was what I was thinking of, as well as the rash of “repressed memory” convictions as well. There were hundreds of them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/5 "2008-01-19T03:31:52Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] > **[DNA points to new killer in '99 case - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/18/masters/index.html)** > > New evidence points to a different killer in the case of a Colorado man convicted in the sexual mutilation slaying of a woman when he was a teenager, the special prosecutor named to review the case said Friday. A 15 year old kid at the time of the killing was convicted with no, zero, physical evidence based mostly on the testimony of experts who weren’t supplied with exculpatory evidence by the Fort Collins Police Dept. He’s been in prison for eight years for a murder that he never should have been convicted of ever. [/QUOTE] Where does it say he was jailed for being “Guilty of dressing in black”? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/6 "2008-01-19T04:01:32Z")
He was jailed for nothing at all. There was no physical evidence nor any eyewitness testimony tieing him to the crime. His conviction was based on the fact that he found the body (not surprising since he lived right there) plus that he was a “wierdo” and had violent drawings in his room. I lived in Ft. Collins at the time of the murder and saw firsthand the pile on this kid. He was an outsider and a convienient target, and now it seems quite clear that he was an innocent man. There is a Ft. Collins police officer by the name of Jim Broderick who now appears (and was at the time widely believed to have) lied at the stand about the case. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/7 "2008-01-19T04:12:49Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] He was jailed for nothing at all. There was no physical evidence nor any eyewitness testimony tieing him to the crime. His conviction was based on the fact that he found the body (not surprising since he lived right there) plus that he was a “wierdo” and had violent drawings in his room. I lived in Ft. Collins at the time of the murder and saw firsthand the pile on this kid. He was an outsider and a convienient target, and now it seems quite clear that he was an innocent man. There is a Ft. Collins police officer by the name of Jim Broderick who now appears (and was at the time widely believed to have) lied at the stand about the case. [/QUOTE] So was there no evidence, or falsified evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/8 "2008-01-19T04:48:08Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] So was there no evidence, or falsified evidence? [/QUOTE] No incriminating evidence, and exculpitory evidence was witheld. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/9 "2008-01-19T05:01:05Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] No incriminating evidence, and exculpitory evidence was witheld. [/QUOTE] So what exactly was the cop supposed to be lying about? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/10 "2008-01-19T08:25:49Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] He was jailed for nothing at all. There was no physical evidence nor any eyewitness testimony tieing him to the crime. His conviction was based on the fact that he found the body (not surprising since he lived right there) plus that he was a “wierdo” and had violent drawings in his room. . [/QUOTE] Have you actually read the trial transcript _and_ interviewed the jury Members? :dubious: Or just a few newspaper articles? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/11 "2008-01-19T17:29:04Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Have you actually read the trial transcript _and_ interviewed the jury Members? :dubious: Or just a few newspaper articles? [/QUOTE] What is your fucking problem? Did you miss the part where he is being released? > [@The Denver Post](#): > > He must now decide whether to pursue a new case against Masters, 35, who has been considered a murder suspect, defendant or convict in the Hettrick case since he was 15 years old. > > A source close to Abrahamson told The Post that he did not believe Abrahamson would resurrect the charges, given the new developments and **lack of evidence.** > > **Prosecutors would be left only with drawings Masters had made that an expert once testified constituted a fantasy rehearsal before the Hettrick murder.** > > Quick, appointed last year to examine the Masters conviction after the Larimer district attorney’s office declared a potential conflict, **has acknowledged that Fort Collins police and prosecutors had failed to turn over key evidence to Masters’ attorneys during the first trial, in violation of court-discovery rules.** All that evidence would be available to Masters’ defense should he be tried again. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/12 "2008-01-19T18:35:08Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] What is your fucking problem? Did you miss the part where he is being released? [/QUOTE] Certainly, he is being released due to new DNA evidence, not becuase the original trial was fataly flawed. So, again, have you actually read the trial transcript and interviewed the jury Members? Or just a few newspaper articles? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/13 "2008-01-19T18:39:01Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Certainly, he is being released due to new DNA evidence, not becuase the original trial was fataly flawed. So, again, have you actually read the trial transcript and interviewed the jury Members? Or just a few newspaper articles? [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Quick, appointed last year to examine the Masters conviction after the Larimer district attorney’s office declared a potential conflict, has acknowledged that Fort Collins police and prosecutors had failed to turn over key evidence to Masters’ attorneys during the first trial, in violation of court-discovery rules. All that evidence would be available to Masters’ defense should he be tried again. that may be considered to be a 'fatal flaw" of the original trial. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/14 "2008-01-19T18:57:49Z")
[QUOTE=wring] that may be considered to be a 'fatal flaw" of the original trial. [/QUOTE] That doesn’t prove that that the kid was convicted because “he dressed in black”. In fact, it doesn’t go at all into what evidence _did_ convict the kid, just that some exculpatory evidence was possibly withheld. Before the OP can go throwing around statements like “kid guilty (only) of dressing in black” he needs to see exactly what evidence was presented to the jury and what of that evidence conviced the jury. Otherwise, _he’s_ guilty of convicting the jury and legal system on even scantier evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/15 "2008-01-19T19:13:32Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Certainly, he is being released due to new DNA evidence, not becuase the original trial was fataly flawed. So, again, have you actually read the trial transcript and interviewed the jury Members? Or just a few newspaper articles? [/QUOTE] He’s being released because of DNA evidence, which has bugger all to do with his conviction in the first place. I suggest you read a little about the case yourself, maybe it will help you understand why a special prosecutor was appointed to review the conviction and test the DNA in the first place. It is not standard procedure to test DNA on all rape and murder cases where conviction took place before testing was available. The jurors, while I think they shouldn’t have convicted Masters, didn’t have access to the witheld evidence either. [QUOTE=Rocky Mountain News] _When they took the case to a jury in 1999, prosecutors did not have a single piece of physical evidence tying him to the killing — no murder weapon, no blood, no hair, no fingerprints, no DNA. What they had was circumstantial evidence — he owned knives like the one that killed her, he talked about the difficulty of stabbing someone and he produced hundreds of pages of writings, drawings and doodles, many of them containing disturbing images._ [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/16 "2008-01-19T19:43:15Z")
Thats why we need the death penalty. We can’t have these guys being released and getting money from the state. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/17 "2008-01-19T22:32:41Z")
It seems to me that Lamar Mundane has offerred pretty fair supporting evidence for the notion that the kid was railroaded into jail on the basis of flimsy evidence, and that the DAs and the cops are guilty of some nefarious conduct in doing so. All Dr. Deth has done is insist on yet more evidence, without offering any evidence or even any counter-arguments for his position. Mr. Mundane wins up to this point. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/18 "2008-01-19T22:49:24Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Thats why we need the death penalty. We can’t have these guys being released and getting money from the state. [/QUOTE] No shit – if he were executed, nobody would’ve bothered testing for false DNA, history would record this kid as a deranged murderer, and all the right-wing red-staters will go to bed happy and satisfied that justice has been and will continue to be served. “It doesn’t matter who does the crime, as long as somebody does the time.” – Sheriff John Bunnell, _COPS._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/19 "2008-01-20T06:39:46Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] He’s being released because of DNA evidence, which has bugger all to do with his conviction in the first place. I suggest you read a little about the case yourself, maybe it will help you understand why a special prosecutor was appointed to review the conviction and test the DNA in the first place. [/QUOTE] Well, I guess you have _not_ actually read the trial transcript and interviewed the jury Members. All you did was read a few biased newspaper articles, right? So, you know nothing about the case, either, do you? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107/20 "2008-01-20T06:42:07Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Well, I guess you have _not_ actually read the trial transcript and interviewed the jury Members. All you did was read a few biased newspaper articles, right? So, you know nothing about the case, either, do you? :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] What exactly are you trying to prove here? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-guilty-of-dressing-in-black-to-be-freed-after-8-years-in-prison/434107.md?page=2)