# Kid hunts bear on hiking trail, kills hiker (not the RO you think) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 5, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931 "2008-08-05T16:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/21 "2008-08-05T18:35:00Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] Eesh. We were thinking about a climbing trip to Rumney next year. Can I expect a bunch of hunters in the woods? [/QUOTE] Rumney isn’t in the NF, it’s right next to the road, and it’s full of climbers. No one is going to hunt there. Deer season is after Halloween; are you climbing then? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/22 "2008-08-05T18:43:11Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] Their bear story is a little hard to swallow. The woman was not hiking alone either, so investigators hhave to believe that a woman in a bright blue poncho, standing in an open field, _right next to another human being_ could be reasonably mistaken for a bear. [/quote] No, it’s actually very easy to swallow. The adrenaline rush you can get when hunting can override normal thought processes. People get caught up in the moment and pretty much anything can look like a bear or a deer. Color, size, shape can all fool the eye. It happens every year in similar situations, but doesn’t always result in a fatality. > [@](#): > > I’m planning a climbing trip right now. None of my guidebooks or trail maps mention anything about hunting being allowed where I’m going. Note to self: Call the ranger station. Hunting is allowed almost everywhere in the US on public land except in State and National Parks, even there there are many exceptions. The point is that unless you are in deer or another major game season you are extremely unlikely to see a hunter in a popular hiking/climbing spot. But it’s almost always open season on things like coyotes and rabbits. I’ve never changed my hiking plans due to hunters, but I have worn blaze orange at times. BTW, I’m not a hunter, but I know many hunters and I hike nearly every weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/23 "2008-08-05T18:51:09Z")
[It’s these damned poncho wearing bears that are to blame.](http://image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/6_1406.jpg) This story still bothers me though. I’ve been bear hunting and there’s no way that I’d ever think about letting kids out to do it on their own. Hell, I needed a burly bear hunting guide along with me before I’d try it myself. A wounded deer sprinting off is one thing. A wounded bear is a whole different ballgame. I wonder what caliber of gun the kid was using. Finally, this line should be removed from that story “That’s comforting to us, but there is a hole in the family.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/24 "2008-08-05T19:00:55Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] In the White Mountain National Forest where I do most of my hiking, hunting is allowed pretty much everywhere. There’s no signage because the default is that hunting is allowed. If I were to not hike when there are hunters in the woods I’d never hike. Most hunters stay away from popular trails because all the game is scared away by hikers, and it’s a pain in the ass to haul out game from rugged terrain. They hunt lower down, near woods roads that have easy access to haul out game. [/quote] Since many if not most nonhunters don’t have a good idea of when the hunting seasons are, one would think that posting signs delineating those seasons in areas with maintained or well-frequented hiking trails would be an excellent use of tax dollars. If I know there’s hunting going on, I’ll stay out of the woods where it’s allowed - but I usually don’t know. > [@](#): > > The burden is always on the hunter to wear orange. If you require hikers to wear orange then you are placing some of burden on them. The burden is entirely on the hunters to know what they are shooting at. When I hike during deer season I wear orange because it makes sense, but it’s not a requirement nor should it be. The reality that hunters frequently shoot at just about anything is something I’d regard as making wearing orange more of a ‘requirement’ than any stupid regulation would. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/25 "2008-08-05T19:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] No, this wasn’t murder. Hunters, especially new/young hunters, shoot quite often when they haven’t fully identified their target. It’s horrible, but it happens. It rarely ends up with a death, and when it does, it’s usually another hunter not a hiker. But to leap from this to murder is, IMO, silly. We should do everything we can with training to avoid this happening, but it’s going to happen. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure it’s as silly as you suggest. Certainly I have no trouble considering a manslaughter charge against both kids in this case. Whether that’s the appropriate charge, I’m not 100% certain, but it seems the best place to start. And from there, based on further investigation, I could see the charge being lowered, or raised, easily. I support hunting, and don’t want to see it regulated out of existence, but this case seems to have more red flags than I could shake a stick at. There seems to be a lot more, here, than a simple accidental shooting. Buck fever could be the explanation, unfortunately, so could deliberate murder. For the OPs concern, I think that it is a good idea to let hikers and recreational types know what hiking trails are set up near active hunting areas. I’m not a hiker, but I couldn’t imagine hiking in NYS during deer season. There are too many accidents there, already. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/26 "2008-08-05T19:50:57Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] Rumney isn’t in the NF, it’s right next to the road, and it’s full of climbers. No one is going to hunt there. Deer season is after Halloween; are you climbing then? [/QUOTE] We don’t climb after mid-October when we’re that far north. So it looks like we’ll miss deer season. Any other season we should know about? Clearly, it’s bear season in Washington. I’d just like to see on the trailhead sign: “Warning: Deer Season in Progress” or something to let me know whether I should head back into town to get an orange vest for the hike to the crag. And fer fuck’s sake, add an age restriction so you don’t have unaccompanied minors. Given that they were hunting right next to a major trail, I wonder if they had the skill to 1) navigate the woods where the big game is to be found and 2) field dress a bear. > [@Cluricaun](#): > > Finally, this line should be removed from that story “That’s comforting to us, but there is a hole in the family.” Ew. That’s a very unfortunate choice of words. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/27 "2008-08-05T20:05:12Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] Given that they were hunting right next to a major trail, I wonder if they had the skill to 1) navigate the woods where the big game is to be found and 2) field dress a bear. [/QUOTE] That’s what I was trying to get at in my previous post. Even if we accept the claim that he thought he was shooting at a bear, is it realistic for two people that age to be bear hunting? If they had the skills to field dress it, would they be able to haul it out of the forest with just the two of them? And what does someone want with a dead bear? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/28 "2008-08-05T20:09:52Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] FWIW - [Here is the sign at the trailhead.](http://media.komonews.com/images/080802_Sauk_Mountain_trail.jpg) Hard to tell if the signage includes hunting info (but I’d want it big an obvious), and new reports say it’s “unclear” as to what kind of signage they have along the trail to warn hikers and hunters of each other’s presence. [/QUOTE] Sauk Mt. Trail is part of the North Cascades National Park, it shouldn’t need “no hunting” signs. As mentioned previously, hunting is not normally allowed in national parks and [North Cascades is no exception](http://www.gonorthcascades.com/hunting.html). Bear season doesn’t even begin until next month! ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/29 "2008-08-05T20:21:55Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] No, this wasn’t murder. Hunters, especially new/young hunters, shoot quite often when they haven’t fully identified their target. It’s horrible, but it happens. It rarely ends up with a death, and when it does, it’s usually another hunter not a hiker. But to leap from this to murder is, IMO, silly. We should do everything we can with training to avoid this happening, but it’s going to happen. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it matters much if it was another hunter or a hiker. If a new hunter shoots a person, because they didn’t identify their target, there should be a serious penalty and not an “Oops, well, shit happens.” I agree that “murder” is silly, but if you shoot someone because you didn’t take the time to 100% identify your target, that’s seems criminally negligent, IMHO. I also agree with you that training is the best way to prevent accidents. The kid has been licenced to hunt with a firearms since he was 9 years old. Buh? Officials say that anyone born after January 1, 1972 has to take a 10 hour “hunter education class”. So how rigorous is this class if a 9-year-old can pass it and get a licence? Technically, at the age of 9, he was allowed to go ito the wood on his own with a firearm. I don’t think in that case the negligence would be the child’s, but I’d look long and hard at regulators for not thinking that there was something inadequate about their system. Follow-up stories have said at 14 he “showed little knowledge or expertise on the species he was hunting”. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/30 "2008-08-05T20:23:13Z")
Oops, my mistake. Bear season has started in the Cascades, other areas start next month. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/31 "2008-08-05T20:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] Sauk Mt. Trail is part of the North Cascades National Park, it shouldn’t need “no hunting” signs. As mentioned previously, hunting is not normally allowed in national parks and [North Cascades is no exception](http://www.gonorthcascades.com/hunting.html). Bear season doesn’t even begin until next month! [/QUOTE] News reports have said bear season started in the region August 2 for the entire Sauk Mountain area. On other websites I’ve read that there is no hunting in National Forests. So I’m getting more and more confused. ETA: Ah, read your post after. Still, was that trail part of a National Forst or just publicly owned land? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/32 "2008-08-05T20:26:31Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] No, this wasn’t murder. Hunters, especially new/young hunters, shoot quite often when they haven’t fully identified their target. [/QUOTE] What about a person wearing a bright blue poncho looks like a bear? ---
**Author:** ![Gulo\_gulo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bcef8e/32.png) [@Gulo\_gulo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gulo_gulo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/33 "2008-08-05T20:27:24Z")
Here are the Washington hunting regs in case anyone is interested: [Washington Hunting Regs 2008 ~ **PDF**](http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/hunter/huntregs2008.pdf) This is why I’m an archery hunter (not that they’re all sparkly clean and perfect either). I’ve heard too many horrible stories about “sound shots” to feel comfortable out in the woods during gun season. My husband has a story about a hunter in Wyoming who was crawling under a fence and got shot in the leg. As he was lying there, he heard or could see someone walk up to him, stand there for a moment, then walk away. Luckily he managed to crawl out to safety. Just a horrible event. Of course I’m not too sure what they can do to prevent it. Hunting areas are getting harder and harder to find and there are already mandatory hunting education requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/34 "2008-08-05T20:31:40Z")
There was a bit of confusion on my part, I think. I was interpreting the “murder” post to mean that the hunter intentionally shot the woman, as in, it wasn’t an accident. I agree that this person should be charged with a crime, a serious one. But I was trying to say that I don’t think there was any ill intent on the hunter’s part. The WMNF has well over 100 trailheads, many on private property. Posting signs at all of them would be a waste of time and moeny since, AFAIK, there has never been a non-hunter shot while hiking in the WMNF. The signs would be constantly vandalized and need replacement, and the hunting season dates change every year. The only significant hunting seasons out here are deer and moose, both of which take place in the late fall after leaf season when there aren’t many hikers. And most hikers then know about hunting season. I’ve never seen any hunting info posted at trailheads mainly because hunters rarely use trails. Most hunting in NH takes place on private land, anyways. Most of the sections of the NF popular with hikers aren’t good for hunting deer or moose. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/35 "2008-08-05T20:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] What about a person wearing a bright blue poncho looks like a bear? [/QUOTE] They probably shot at the sound and movement, not the object. Sad, but true. ---
**Author:** ![Gulo\_gulo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bcef8e/32.png) [@Gulo\_gulo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gulo_gulo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/36 "2008-08-05T20:33:25Z")
General Western Aug. 1-Nov. 15 GMUs 407-466, 485g, 501-520, 524-574, 601-684 And here’s the info for Sauk: > [@](#): > > GMU 437-SAUK (Skagit and Snohomish cos.): > > town of Sedro-Woolley; E along SR 20 to Baker River Rd > at the town of Concrete; N on Baker River Rd to Thunder > Creek; E up Thunder Creek to Watson Creek; N up > Watson Creek to its headwaters; E from the headwaters > of Watson Creek to Noisy Diobsud Wilderness boundary; > N and E on Noisy Diobsud Wilderness boundary to > North Cascades National Park boundary; S and E along > the North Cascades National Park boundary to the Ross > Lake National Recreation boundary; S along the Ross > Lake National Recreation Area boundary, across the SR > 20 (North Cascade Hwy) and the Skagit River; E along > the Ross Lake National Recreation Area boundary to > the North Cascades National Park boundary near Big > Devil Peak; SE on the North Cascades National Park > boundary to the Cascade River Rd; S on Cascade River > Rd to US Forest Service Rd 1590; S on US Forest > Service Rd 1590 to US Forest Service Trail 769 (South > Fork Cascade River Trail); S on US Forest Service Trail > 769 (South Fork Cascade River Trail) to the Glacier > Peak Wilderness Area boundary; W and S on Glacier > Peak Wilderness Area Boundary to the Suiattle River; > W down the Suiattle River to the Sauk River; N on the > Sauk River to SR 530 (Sauk Valley Rd); S on SR 530 > to the town of Darrington; W on SR 530 to SR 9 at the > town of Arlington; N on SR 9 to SR 20, W of the town of > Sedro-Woolley, and the point of beginning. I don’t know the area well enough to say who was where. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/37 "2008-08-05T20:43:30Z")
I was questioned by a game warden a few years ago while I was hiking on public land in Pennsylvania. He was concerned that I did not have a hunting license. I explained that I was not hunting. He questioned further about the firearm I had in my possession. I showed him my concealed carry permit, and my .357 magnum. He was still confused. I explained that I was concerned about being shot by a hunter. It was my intent, I explained, not to go down without a fight. He wanted to cite me for something, but realized that I was not breaking the law. (In reality, I had been target shooting on a friend’s private property, but had to hike in/hike out and ran into the warden on the way back to my car.) ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/38 "2008-08-05T20:48:46Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] I don’t think it matters much if it was another hunter or a hiker. If a new hunter shoots a person, because they didn’t identify their target, there should be a serious penalty and not an “Oops, well, shit happens.” I agree that “murder” is silly, but if you shoot someone because you didn’t take the time to 100% identify your target, that’s seems criminally negligent, IMHO. [/QUOTE] A little more than a year ago, the 14-year-old nephew of a good friend of ours was killed by a hunter who mistook the boy for a deer. This despite the fact that the kid was in blaze orange, etc. [Link to news story](http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=139967). I don’t know the outcome of that man’s trial, but the sidebar to the linked article shows what he was charged with in Minnesota: > [@](#): > > **609.205 Manslaughter in the second degree**. > > A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both: > (snip) > by shooting another with a firearm or other dangerous weapon as a result of negligently believing the other to be a deer or other animal ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/39 "2008-08-05T20:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] Still, was that trail part of a National Forst or just publicly owned land? [/QUOTE] [This site led me to believe that’s it’s in the North Cascades National Park](http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_national_park/wa/drv_nor.htm) but I’ve since found that [the park is off to the east](http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/mbs/skagit-wsr/maps/index.shtml). It is part of [the Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest](http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/mbs/recreation/special/scenic_hikes.shtml), though, and may also be part of a national recreation area. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931/40 "2008-08-05T20:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=Beadalin] I don’t know the outcome of that man’s trial, but the sidebar to the linked article shows what he was charged with in Minnesota: [/QUOTE] [The sentence doesn’t look too severe.](http://www.startribune.com/local/west/11831576.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-hunts-bear-on-hiking-trail-kills-hiker-not-the-ro-you-think/458931.md?page=3)