# Kid who was bullied commits suicide. Should bully be charged with involuntary manslaughter? (real) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878 "2017-02-03T03:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/21 "2017-02-09T17:50:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, that’s a reach, particularly given that it’s his boss. Going by the account in that article, it certainly sounds like she played a role, but it also sounds like the kids was taking it from all sides, pretty constantly, for a long time. If she was the primary reason he killed himself, then it seems odd to blame her for him choosing suicide over quitting his job. If (as seems likely) he killed himself because of the aggregation of bullying he’d experienced up to that point, then what’s the justification for choosing this particular person as the one most responsible? I assume because this is the person who is oldest and in the position of most authority in his life who was a bully. The other bullies are other minors, mostly, and not only was this an adult, this was an adult with responsibility over the kid. If genders were reversed, and the male manager was sexually harassing the female employee, and then she (the hypothetical female employee) took her life, do you think that there would be any greater responsibility on the manager? Why is this different? Just because the harassment was not sexual in nature, just inhumanely denigrating? > [@](#): > > That being said, I admit to some schadenfreude over the idea of this miserable asshole of a Dairy Queen manager shitting her pants that she might be doing hard time for throwing a hamburger at some kid. It would be good if people had to a reason stop and think before causing others harm. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/22 "2017-02-09T18:06:05Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Would a reasonably prudent person just quit their job … No, because sometimes a person has to put up with an asshole boss because they need a pay check. I don’t know what this young man’s financial circumstances where, but in some lower working class families a teenagers paycheck may be part of the family income. Regardless, teenagers are not known for the prudence of adult workers. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/23 "2017-02-09T18:20:24Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Would a reasonably prudent person just quit their job … This lets the boss off the hook. It puts the onus on the victim to leave, rather than the bully to stop bullying. And what difference does “reasonably prudent” make? Is the boss less culpable? ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/24 "2017-02-09T18:49:32Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > FFS. What f she’s really a witch. > > It’s a simple psychiatric process. 99% chance she has been a victim her whole life and has absolutely no idea how to begin to work through it. > > When in doubt trust the professionals, not pitchfork wielding ignorance. Not all bullies were/are victims. Many are just brought up in the bully culture. It’s a way of life for some. Others have a screw loose. IMO, the supervisor should be held accountable, but not criminally. Public pressure on the owner of the franchise to terminate her, a civil suit for a hostile work environment with therapy as part of the settlement would be far more appropriate and likely far more successful. Even if she were convicted at a criminal level, at some point (in my state, probably after 2-4 years served), she’s going to walk among us again. Is a prison sentence going to reform her or merely to function to fulfill some sense of vengeance? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/25 "2017-02-09T18:54:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If genders were reversed, and the male manager was sexually harassing the female employee, and then she (the hypothetical female employee) took her life, do you think that there would be any greater responsibility on the manager? I’m not sure I understand the point of this hypothetical. Nothing I’ve said here is gender-dependent, and as far as I know, there’s no element of sexual harassment to this story at all. Are there any other unrelated crimes you’d like to add into this shitty situation? What if the manager had an unlicensed firearm? What if the Dairy Queen was violating fire code? What if the “victim” was really an ISIS sleeper agent? We could discuss any of these scenarios, but I’m not seeing how they add to our understanding of the terrible thing that actually happened. That being said… > [@](#): > > Why is this different? Just because the harassment was not sexual in nature, just inhumanely denigrating? Yeah, I’d say the significant difference between sexual harassment and non-sexual harassment is the sexual angle. That’s sort of a weird question to ask, and I’m not sure where you were going with it. I’m generally okay treating assault with a sexual component more harshly than assault with a non-sexual component. Are you… saying that’s wrong? Regardless, I’m not sure I could get behind manslaughter charges for someone who sexually harassed someone into suicide, either. My position here is less to do with the nature of the abuse, and more to do with the difficulty in demonstrating the motivations and mindset of a suicide victim to the standard demanded of criminal liability. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/26 "2017-02-09T19:06:22Z")
Surely, for a manslaughter conviction you’d have to prove that the mythical ordinary reasonable person would have foreseen that what they were doing was likely to drive someone to suicide? ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/27 "2017-02-09T19:09:19Z")
I don’t think we can charge a kid who killed himself with manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/28 "2017-02-09T19:13:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not sure I understand the point of this hypothetical. Nothing I’ve said here is gender-dependent, and as far as I know, there’s no element of sexual harassment to this story at all. Are there any other unrelated crimes you’d like to add into this shitty situation? What if the manager had an unlicensed firearm? What if the Dairy Queen was violating fire code? What if the “victim” was really an ISIS sleeper agent? We could discuss any of these scenarios, but I’m not seeing how they add to our understanding of the terrible thing that actually happened. > > That being said… > > Yeah, I’d say the significant difference between sexual harassment and non-sexual harassment is the sexual angle. That’s sort of a weird question to ask, and I’m not sure where you were going with it. I’m generally okay treating assault with a sexual component more harshly than assault with a non-sexual component. Are you… saying that’s wrong? > > Regardless, I’m not sure I could get behind manslaughter charges for someone who sexually harassed someone into suicide, either. My position here is less to do with the nature of the abuse, and more to do with the difficulty in demonstrating the motivations and mindset of a suicide victim to the standard demanded of criminal liability. My point is that she was creating a hostile workplace. Sexual harassment is usually the thing that is pointed at in hostile work environments, but any time you abuse your employees is creating a hostile work environment. Not sure your other hypotheticals, as they are completely unrelated to anything to do with either the story, or to a rather small change I made to create the hypothetical. And, I feel confidant that, if gender roles were reversed in the story, you’d be hearing about the sexual harrasment side of the abuse as well. I consider sexual harassment to be a particular evil, because it denigrates those who are weaker and more vulnerable, not because it has anything to do necessarily with sex. Denigrating an employee in the fashion portrayed in the story, I feel, is pretty much up there with denigrating them sexually as well. So, while her treatment isn’t quite at the level of sexual harassment, it’s only a hairsbreadth less. In either case, you have the person with the power treating the person in their charge as a thing, not a person. As far as charging her with manslaughter, I don’t know. I don’t think it really fits the definition to the point I would convict on a jury, though IU’d be tempted to because of what a miserable piece of shit she is. But, we have no real laws about bullying, so, even though she is a horrible person who inflicted herself on another human to the point where that person decided to take his own life rather than continue to live, I don’t know that she broke any criminal statute. That said, I hope the civil case goes well, and as her name is pretty well known at this point, I doubt she will ever be given the responsibility over anything more vulnerable than a rock. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/29 "2017-02-13T16:40:43Z")
I don’t no ow what the right thing to do is here. I read the article and all I can say is a shitstorm is coming. Poor guy. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/30 "2017-02-14T06:47:45Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > No, in fact there are (multiple, now that I’m trying to find the one that I’m looking for) cases where a getaway driver, who did nothing but sit outside in a car the entire time, is charged with murder while is accomplices go into a store and, while robbing it, end up killing someone (or multiple people). In the case I was looking for, IIRC, the guard killed the robber, so the getaway driver ended up being charged with murdering his friend. > > So, not only can you be convicted of murder when you didn’t physically cause it (anymore that I would be could have been said to have caused someones death if I dropped them off at the bank it was held up and they were killed), but there’s a precedent for it. Hmmm. I don’t condone bank robbery, but I think this law is total BS…it is a travesty that someone can be convicted of a murder as a driver when they sat there and played no direct or indirect physical role in the killing of the person. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/31 "2017-02-14T11:10:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Hmmm. > > I don’t condone bank robbery, but I think this law is total BS…it is a travesty that someone can be convicted of a murder as a driver when they sat there and played no direct or indirect physical role in the killing of the person. They did play a role by being involved in a conspiracy. And by providing the means of escape, they enabled the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/32 "2017-02-14T17:45:15Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > They did play a role by being involved in a conspiracy. And by providing the means of escape, they enabled the crime. Yes but that is far removed from actually committing a murder. Anyhow, I’m sidetracking the thread. ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/33 "2017-02-14T17:55:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes but that is far removed from actually committing a murder. Anyhow, I’m sidetracking the thread. In most cases it would be considered homicide during the commission of a felony. Being a getaway driver is considered part of a conspiracy to commit a felony, so any homicide or assault committed during the commission of the overall crime would be part of it. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/34 "2017-02-14T19:15:57Z")
I think any half-decent lawyer could get the manslaughter charge dismissed. My guess is there will be a plea bargain and she’ll end up being charged with a lesser offense. IANAL but even if she were convicted of manslaughter I can’t see it holding up on appeal. Definitely an over-reach by the prosecutor who maybe has eyes on higher office in the near future and figures this will boost him with the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/35 "2017-02-14T19:24:11Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Would a reasonably prudent person just quit their job … “Why didn’t she leave?” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/36 "2017-02-14T20:18:53Z")
I would suggest that if **everyone** bullied this kid, it’s not as simple a matter as blaming the one person who was the meanest (unless she was putting out cigarettes on his forehead or something). Nor is it as simple as blaming the kid. I’ve met people who just do everything wrong and are amazingly socially inept. And the natural reaction of everyone is to ‘nip’ back and try to get that person to do things right and start getting a clue. It’s part of our animal nature, bullying to teach and bullying to force conformance. It’s an unfortunate reality of our evolved state. You may as well put someone in jail for incorrectly describing a suspect from a crime scene - something we’re all notoriously poor at. Though, again, there’s certainly a level of abuse which is clearly an outlier against the rest of society and should be prosecuted. But throwing a hamburger at someone fails to meet that criteria. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/37 "2017-02-14T22:06:02Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No, because sometimes a person has to put up with an asshole boss because they need a pay check. I don’t know what this young man’s financial circumstances where, but in some lower working class families a teenagers paycheck may be part of the family income. Regardless, teenagers are not known for the prudence of adult workers. Corpses don’t usually get paychecks, either. You’re quitting your job either way. Just that one of those ways involves also quitting life itself. > [@missred](#): > > In most cases it would be considered homicide during the commission of a felony. Being a getaway driver is considered part of a conspiracy to commit a felony, so any homicide or assault committed during the commission of the overall crime would be part of it. Yep, that’s the part they disagree with. I disagree with it too. It’s a felony, and someone died, but that the only thing that makes it remotely similar to murder. Nobody should ever be able to “accidentally” murder someone. Murder requires intent. Intent to rob a bank is not intent to commit murder. Especially, and I’ve seen this happen, when the cop is the one who pulled the trigger. At worst, that’s “felony suicide”, not murder. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/38 "2017-02-14T22:41:17Z")
Manslaughter is too much, but there should definitely be a separate civil/criminal class for these cases to fall under. Makes me wonder, is there any other criminal case that essentially requires reading the mind of the victim? What if a victim commits suicide but first releases a long list of names? How does each defendant successfully argue, “I wasn’t enough of a reason for the suicide?” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/39 "2017-02-14T23:18:16Z")
It’s hard to judge the situation without being there. I’ve intervened a number of times in HS to stop a bully from physically harming someone so I certainly don’t condone or put up with it. But if you don’t stand up for yourself then life isn’t going to be kind to you on any level. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878/40 "2017-02-15T23:31:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Manslaughter is too much, but there should definitely be a separate civil/criminal class for these cases to fall under. What crime would/should involve saying mean things to someone? If you say, “Ultravires, I read some of your prior posts, and I think you are a worthless piece of shit who should go home and die,” should that really be a crime? Would it make a difference if I was emotionally unstable and harmed myself because of what you said? Let’s say that you knew I was emotionally unstable. Should there be a rule in a society that values free speech that such speech has to be restrained when the listener is more sensitive than others? I agree that bullies are bad people and would like to see them go away, but I don’t see how we can craft a law that, essentially, says you cannot insult someone without having a chilling effect on speech. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-who-was-bullied-commits-suicide-should-bully-be-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-real/778878.md?page=3)