# Kiddie Porn or Art? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2000, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368 "2000-12-27T13:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/1 "2000-12-27T13:30:51Z")
Several months back, A friend of mine and I stumbled across a rare, valueable book while out used book hunting. The store-owner had it marked at half-cover price. It was an early edition in decent shape and was prob. worth several hundred dollars. We bought it with the intention of selling it on Ebay. Normally, this would have been no problem. However…the book was “Show Me” by Will McBride. For those unfamiliar with the book, it’s a vaguely condecending…um…art book? educational book? um… In it’s own words “(a) book for parents who want their kids to grow up proud and unashamed of their bodies and sexuality. It is an explicit, thoughtful and affectionate picture book…”. …and it is nude pictures of kids (some of whom are _clearly_ aroused or being aroused) There’s a picture of a nude daddy or big brother sitting on the floor, hugging his knees, as a _young_ (5-8) girl squats beside him, one hand around his knee, the other, reaching under her thigh, finger inserted into her vagina. There’s a close-up picture of a pre-teen (she doesn’t seem to have shaved) girl’s vagina being spread. There’s a picture of a pre-teen’s penis, erect, with an undershirt draped over it. All of it is beautifully photographed. The contrasts of shadow and light are wonderful…it’s obvious that the photographer was extremely talented. (Note, to forestall the obvious: No, I have no problem with Michelangelo’s or Donatello’s David. Those, by my (and, I believe, any reasonable) standards are art.) I sold it (and we made a bundle), and before I sold it, I wrote this post, but didn’t actually submit it for some reason. Anyway I stumbled across it again and thought it would be worth discussing. Some questions: A) Where do you draw the line between kiddie-porn and Art? This book, to me, is tap-dancing _right_ on the boundary. B) Am I rationalizing when I think that the high price tag put it in the hands of the art connoisseurs and out of the hands of the deves? (I suspect I am…there’re rich deves, but presumably rich deves could get more…graphic material.) C) Is it hurting anyone if a deve gets it? If a deve gets it, is it an encouragement or a cathartic release? D) Like I said, I sold it, but what would you have done? And why? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/2 "2000-12-27T13:39:27Z")
A slight hijack, but this sounds quite a bit more disturbing than something that greatly bothered Una a few years ago - a large, coffee-table sized book containing **nothing but** black-and-white photographs of baby butts. Nothing but baby butts. Acres and acres of baby butts, shown in every way, shape, and form, with some graphic photos that included genitalia. It was behind the counter at Barnes and Noble, and I asked them why the holy Hell they sold such a thing, and what sick slobbering pedophiles they sold it to. Their answer: typically women from age 20 to 30 bought the books, and they sold so well they were on back order. :eek: In the same vein as your book you mention, but nearly so bad. It still gave me the creeps. {{{shudder}}} ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/3 "2000-12-27T16:29:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **There’s a picture of a nude daddy or big brother sitting on the floor, hugging his knees, as a _young_ (5-8) girl squats beside him, one hand around his knee, the other, reaching under her thigh, finger inserted into her vagina.** This is child pornography and it makes me sick to even read it. ---
**Author:** ![Squooshed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Squooshed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squooshed)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/4 "2000-12-27T17:02:20Z")
I have to agree with **xizor**. From a common sense perspective, this sounds like it definitely crosses the line between art and pornography. From a legal perspective, it may qualify as obscenity as well. All in all, it’s not something I personally would want to be involved with. (Gosh that sounds prudish.) ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/5 "2000-12-27T17:03:54Z")
Discussed right here already: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=52230](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=52230) ---
**Author:** ![Gunslinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gunslinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gunslinger)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/6 "2000-12-27T17:45:17Z")
Simple guideline: legs together = art; legs apart = smut ---
**Author:** ![Kiki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kiki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiki)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/7 "2000-12-27T18:07:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*There’s a picture of a nude daddy or big brother sitting on the floor, hugging his knees, as a young (5-8) girl squats beside him, one hand around his knee, the other, reaching under her thigh, finger inserted into her vagina. > > There’s a close-up picture of a pre-teen (she doesn’t seem to have shaved) girl’s vagina being spread. > > There’s a picture of a pre-teen’s penis, erect, with an undershirt draped over it. \*\* This is pornography in my opinion and it’s disgusting. Mainly because of this statement… > [@](#): > > \*\*…and it is nude pictures of kids (some of whom are clearly _aroused_ or being _aroused_) \*\* It’s not art if these kids are aroused or being aroused. I completely agree with **Gunslinger**. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/8 "2000-12-28T00:52:46Z")
“It’s not art if these kids are aroused or being aroused.” They get aroused really easily, even newborns often get aroused. No shame in it really. I guess you’d have to have a boy baby to see my point, ummm I mean the point, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/9 "2000-12-28T02:55:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* \*\* There’s a picture of a nude daddy or big brother sitting on the floor, hugging his knees, as a _young_ (5-8) girl squats beside him, one hand around his knee, the other, reaching under her thigh, finger inserted into her vagina. There’s a close-up picture of a pre-teen (she doesn’t seem to have shaved) girl’s vagina being spread.\*\* This makes me queasy. Sure, children are sexual but they’re growing innnocents, dependant on grown-ups for guidance. _NO_ 5-8 yr. old is an informed, willing partipant, nor is a pre-teen boy or girl. No matter the skill, that isn’t exploring or celebrating childhood sexuality; it’s exploiting kids. Ignoring the fact that children are sexual beings is as bad as exploiting them, IMO. Sad to say, this sounds like exploitation; artful, skilled, suave exploitation. What’s best to do? I dunno. I’m pretty hardcore about censorship and the First Amendment…mainly because I’m not sure deves need encouragement, or if there’s a cause-and-effect relationship. This didn’t add much, beyond my nausea over adult depravity that preys on children, no matter how artfully presented. Veb ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/10 "2000-12-28T23:26:44Z")
“This makes me queasy” This book might be at your local library. It was at ours, as I saw it but didn’t open it, until they didn’t want to buy it again & again after people didn’t return it. Don’t judge a book by someone’s description. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/11 "2000-12-29T01:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by handy \* > \*\*“This makes me queasy” > > This book might be at your local library. It was at ours, as I saw it but didn’t open it, until they didn’t want to buy it again & again after people didn’t return it. > > Don’t judge a book by someone’s description. \*\* Oh, puh-_leeze_! I run the local public library–and before you ask, yes, we buy things I would rather gouge my eyes out with a salad fork than read. Hate to break it to you, but we routinely “judge books by someone’s description”; they’re called _reviews_. It should be plain that I stated a personal reaction: no matter how artfully portrayed, an adult male shoving his finger into the vagina of a little girl as an “exploration of childhood sexuality” _makes me queasy_. Veb ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/12 "2000-12-29T04:04:15Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s a picture of a nude daddy or big brother sitting on the floor, hugging his knees, as a young (5-8) girl squats beside him, one hand around his knee, the other, reaching under her thigh, finger inserted into her vagina. > [@](#): > > It should be plain that I stated a personal reaction: no matter how artfully portrayed, an adult male shoving his finger into the vagina of a little girl as an “exploration of childhood sexuality” makes me queasy. Does _anybody_ read posts nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/13 "2000-12-29T07:59:35Z")
I _have_ to ask - how much did you make on the book? And yes, it sounds very creepy. But kiddie porn? Yeah, maybe. But I’m a prude. ---
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/14 "2000-12-29T08:16:17Z")
Her finger was in her own vagina. When I babysat my cousin Daniel he liked to play with himself. Big deal. Kids do that. –Tim ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/15 "2000-12-29T08:23:30Z")
Just for more info: I found [this picture](http://www.nudebooks.com/showme.html) from the book, and it is also cited in [this online book on pedophilia](http://www.phix.com/~cipher/books/radicase/chap10.html). (I skimmed through the chapter that mentions “Show Me” - it almost appears that this online book is \*pro-\*pedophilia, though. I get that impression.) I will have to take the time to read it further. An excerpt: > [@](#): > > Of course, even positive erotica like Show Me! comes under attack from the anti-sexual lobby: this very book was featured in a picture in The Times of 8 February, 1978, immediately before the second reading of the Child Protection Bill. Holding it up for the photographer as an example of the iniquitous material that had to be stamped out was American anti-porn campaigner Judianne Densen-Gerber. [sub]Hey, it’s a slow night, waiting to download something…killing time and fighting ignorance, OK?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/16 "2000-12-29T08:31:10Z")
I think that’s a beautiful picture. Nothing pornographic at all. If you can’t look at naked kids without thinking of sex, you are the one with a problem. I do agree the described pictures with the children fingering themselves may be in a gray area, though. ---
**Author:** ![Badge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Badge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badge)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/17 "2000-12-29T08:42:40Z")
Any portrayals of children in sexual situations (sex acts, as opposed to simple nudity) is child pornography, by definition. That’s Federal law and I imagine the same in every state. Possessing this book would be a crime, and selling it is a felony. Of course, a well-fought court battle could find a judge and/or jury that would see it otherwise. The quality of the photography and the accompanying text could convince the trier of fact that the book is artistic or educational. That’s what court is for. But any cop I know would see this book on your coffee table and be reaching for the cuffs. And yes, it is perfectly natural for children to become aroused and touch themselves and even others in a sexual manner. However, photographing this and selling the pictures is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/18 "2000-12-29T08:43:45Z")
More time to kill: [Banned from Seattle library.](http://www.quest-solutions.com/cgi-bin/library.asp?cat=Banned) Listed in an obviously Pro-pedophile [“Child-Adult Loving List”](http://www.fpc.net/pages/prd/gen/robin.html). (_Ewwwwwwww_.) ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/19 "2000-12-29T14:59:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\*When I babysat my cousin Daniel he liked to play with himself. Big deal. Kids do that. > \*\* The act in itself is not a big deal, but when you pose children doing it, photograph it and put it in a book for all to see, then it becomes wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368/20 "2000-12-29T15:09:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*I _have_ to ask - how much did you make on the book? > > And yes, it sounds very creepy. But kiddie porn? Yeah, maybe. But I’m a prude. \*\* About $300 and change (but I split it with the friend who was with me in the bookstore. He spotted it and said “Bleah! Lookit this!” (Typical guy reaction: “This is disgusting. Here, look!” 🙂 ) and I’d remembered how valueable it was, it was only fair to split the take.) so I netted approx. $150.00 Fenris [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kiddie-porn-or-art/47368.md?page=2)