If the potential for coercion by adults is the reason statutory rape is illegal, I don’t see why the jury couldn’t be asked to decide whether or not improper use of the adult’s power caused the minor to be coerced into sex, rather than simply whether or not the sex took place. I’m not against statutory rape laws for the most part, but I would be much more comfortable with them if they were taken on a case by case basis like that. Same for incest and various forms of unethical workplace relationships. It makes no sense to say “across the board, this is wrong” when it clearly isn’t.
It’s interesting to note that even in states with no “Romeo and Juliet” laws it’s very likely that the age of consent FOR MARRIAGE is lower than the age of consent for sex, assuming parental consent to the marriage. Therefore, there is and always has been a loophole in the statutory rape laws, you just have to be willing to marry ‘em and be able to get the parents’ consent. This makes very little sense to me, but I guess it does clarify the whole coercion aspect. If you’re the kind of adult who’s willing and able to coerce a teen into having sex with you, you’re probably not the kind of adult who’s willing to sign on to a marriage and the possibility of your teen paramour taking you to the cleaners in a divorce a few years down the road when s/he figures out how badly s/he’s been railroaded.
I think what the OP is saying is that if a hetero couple has sex but they happen to be 12 years old, one or both (most likely the male) could be charged as an adult for the “heinous” crime of raping a 12 year old.
Yes, I believe “agism” is alive and well, especially in the US. In particular, I don’t like the way public schools continue to ignore the civil rights of students under the mask of “it’s for their bests interests.” Last night, I went to a family friend’s son’s graduation, and I heard that the school was sponsoring an alcohol-free grad night. Without parents, all students were forced to be taken to an unknown location without cell phones and then would be returned later in the evening. Even with parental consent, this smacks of kidnapping and false imprisonment.
It’s because we don’t have a mind reading machine. And lacking one of those I can’t see any way that a jury could determine coercion.
Your use of “improper use of the adult’s power” suggests that you think that you need some sort of formal power over a person to coerce them. Of course that isn’t true. I believe most adults could coerce most 15 year olds into having sex with them if they wished to make the effort. I don’t know if you remember how vulnerable you were at 15, how eager to be popular etc. Using those sorts of factors as coercion measures doesn’t require any improper use of power.
Unless you simply mean that any use of any sort power is improper. But then we are back at the stage where it is impossible to determine whether coercion was involved.
To give you a couple of examples:
I find out that an acquaintance’s child has been doing something minor but forbidden by their parents/school. Cutting school, watching porn movies, whatever. I promise not to tell, but then imply that I will tell if I’m not granted favours. …
I find that a child wants something forbidden. Maybe an alibi and a ride to a party they can’t go to. Maybe clothes they aren’t allowed to have. I buy those things, with strings attached…
I find that a child is feeling alone and vulnerable as most teenagers do at some stage. I offer a shoulder to cry on and a place to hang out. I establish a “deep” friendship of the kind that children can develop in a matter of weeks. then I ay I can’t continue because it;s interfering with me getting sex from other pertners, who are jealous, and unless an arrangement can be worked out I’m going to have to stop being the child’s friend…
I’m not suggesting overt prostitution in any of these cases, certainly nothing that could remotely result in charges. But I hope you now see the problem with determining whether a child has been coerced. To me, all those situations are coercion of one form or another. But it would be damn near impossible for a jury to determine that, even if both parties gave honest and open testimony. Particularly in the third case the child is unlikely to even know that they *have * been coerced into sex. Yet my intent was coerecion all along.
I agree that in a perfect world we’d ascertain coercion on a case by case basis. I also believe that in a perfect world German cannibals should be allowed to kill an one another. But in the real world the difficulties of determining consent and coercion is so high, and the consequences so dire, that in in both cases it’s easier to simply say “No, consent can never be given”.
scenario
older dude boards a train in Washington state with his 16 year old girlfriend who has a note from her parents (saying its ok for her to be traveling cross country with this guy) the have a room on the train for some privacy
in WA the aoc is 16,
some where near Spokane they start having sex then while still having sex they cross into Idaho where the aoc is 17 (note I am making this up, I have no true idea) same couple only now the dude is a baby raping pedophile who should be locked up for life and end up as a registered sex offender, now they are having some marathon sex and the train crosses into Montana where the aoc is 15, Sweet! shes way old enough for hot sexors!!!
the train takes a hard left and crosses into Canada where the aoc goes back up to 18, once again baby raping pedo
and the girl is dating older dude cause 16 yr old boys are icky and dont know what to do with a nice horny girl like her.
now what?
Err, what’s your point? That you shift key is broken
That laws are inconsistent and that legality varies between nations?
Your example would work equally well if the dude had a pet snake with him, or the girl was drinking alcohol or the couple were playing poker. All sorts of things are legal in some places and are illegal and will result in jail time if done in other places.
You may also be shocked to find that the Pope is a Roman Catholic.
I think my point may belong in another thread, it was really that there is no way to have one couple be consensual sex partners where one is raping the other doing irreparable harm to her immortal soul while they are having a great time or something.
sorry its late and it was a long day I think I just dropped this post in the wrong consent thread.
How different is that from determining that a 16 year old should be tried as an adult for a crime he or she committed? I don’t think we have a sure-fire way to judge whether the minor was mature or cognizant of his or her actions sufficiently to merit being tried outside of juvenile courts.
Actually, my impression (admittedly, based on no research whatsoever) is that maturity has little or nothing to do with determining whether a minor is tried as an aduult for their crimes as much as the severity of the crimes which is also inconsistant (and kinda lame - if someone is mature enough to know that strangling their baby sister is a bad thing, how come they wouldn’t be charged as an adult for shoplifting or grafitti?)
Juries decide on questions of intent all the time, for example first degree versus second degree murder. And your examples all involve facts that can be found via the testimony of witnesses, including the supposed victim. No mind reading necessary. If there is blackmail or quid pro quo going on, it is possible to find out.
And if the minor just prefers the company of an adult for whatever reason and no one feels hurt or taken advantage of, in my opinion no crime has been committed. Just because some people are squicked out shouldn’t make it a crime, see Anna Nicole Smith and her billionaire octogenarian husband.
My point (and not being a legal scholar, I’m sure my argument will continue to get shot through with holes) is that not every adult-minor sexual relationship is harmful or coerced and our laws should reflect that. My stance is that a jury should be able to rule on whether any particular relationship is harmful and/or coerced based on guidelines to be determined. If not, let the relationship stand.
Sex on a train, huh? That qualify you for the yard-high club?
Surely we don’t prosecute every instance of underage sexual activity, do we? Aren’t those decisions made on a case-by-case basis, like the decision whether to prosecute an underage murder suspect as an adult?
99.99% of instances of underage sexual activity are not brought to the attention of prosecutors. I’m sure that if you only look at angry parents who go down to the courthouse and complain that a 17 year old boy is shtupping their 15 year old daughter, some sort of formal legal involvement ensues almost every time.
Charges can definitely be brought up by people other than the parents. My cousin got in trouble with a 16-year-old. Neither the kid nor the parents wanted to press charges, but some form of child care services came in and pressed it for them.
The only thing that saved my cousin was the one thing I usually decry: Said cousin is female, and thus got a much lighter sentence. I don’t even think she got jail time. (Well, I assume her confession helped, too.)