Kids have too much homework! Hasn’t this argument been around forever?

Three hours of hime work seems reasonable for a college prep high school. I just looked it up and to graduate on the honors track at my high school you have to take 270 units over the 4 years, college prep was 265 and high school diploma was 260. The honors track works out to 33.75 hours in the classroom per week with the student averaging 7 classes at a time (out of 9 periods) while the high school diploma spent 32.5 hours or basically one class less each semester. Each class assigning two hours of homework a week seem fairly minimal if you’re actually going to learn the material.

When I was in high school in the late 90s I’d typically be really bored during the winter season when I didn’t have a sport going. I’d get done with school at 2:30 and even with a workout I’d be home by 4 and have most of my home work done before dinner.

I’ve posted this a few times but when my nephew started hs he had a math teacher who wasn’t a math teacher she was a literature teacher who was hired to replace a retiring teacher who ended up not retiring that year

She admitted she wasn’t good at math, so she found youtube videos that explained the bookwork, which was the homework …

But a lot of it these days is the teacher shows them how to do it or finds something that explains it and they do the actual work at home

My kids had a lot more homework than I did. I was college prep in the 80s.
Hell, my daughter had a dipshit of a gym teacher try to assign an essay about the Masters.

I don’t seem to recall my HS homework load being unreasonable. In any event, it left me woefully unprepared for the work needed to succeed in college. Someone mentioned earlier the expectation to work/study three additional hours for every hour spent in a college class, that’s what I’m still hearing a lot from instructors today.

My kid spends about 3 hours a day on homework as a HS Freshman. She’s in college prep in all subjects where that is offered.The teachers warned us that it will be more in Junior and Senior year when she’s in 3 or 4 AP classes. She’s on the tennis team which is a minimum of 3 hours a day. So she’s home at 6 and doing homework/projects/studying until 10 almost every night. She’s going to need to control her perfectionist tendencies or it’s not sustainable. Not only is she a straight A student her average grade is 98.x%. She may not even be in the top 10% of her class (public school that sends 94% of graduates to 4 year college)

My brother took a total of two AP classes and went to Georgia Tech with NO extracurricular activities, no volunteer work, no sports. This was 30 years ago. GPA 3.8 SAT 1380. Was in top 2% of class but in a very ordinary high school.

Last year my niece (his daughter) finished up with 10 AP classes. Was captain of an award winning robotics team. Had a number of leadership positions in school organizations. Did not get into Georgia Tech. GPA 4.3, SAT 1490. Was not in top 10% of class in one of the top ranked high schools in the state.

What it takes to get into a competitive university these days is a lot more than it used to be a generation ago.

When I was in HS, (50s), homework was a joke. I never took a book home. there was time to do it all in study-hall. When passed in, nobody looked at it to see if we were grasping the material. The entire grade was based on the exams, where I could make steady Cs just by staying awake in class.

I simply did not learn how to study, or more importantly, how to game the system. I was accepted at Duke, Illinois and LSU. The latter was the most affordable one, so they got the privilege of chewing me up and flunking me out.

I feel so conflicted about homework. One one hand, yes, it’s totally ridiculous for a student to have more than a couple hours of homework. On other other hand, modern college admissions expect extraordinary acceleration from students these days, and you can’t cover twice as much material as “normal” in the same 8 hours.

From the kid perspective

Basically, the real issue is that people should think about what they want to get out of high school. The elite college route is basically deciding you want to work way, way harder than you have to, because that’s the most likely path to affluence in later life. We know that such a path means working really really hard later–to get into Med school or law school, in those schools, and/or working those 60-80 hour weeks as a young professional. Well, it doesn’t start there, if you want be making “good money”, or are just really interested in a high-powered career–that “working harder than everyone else” starts in high school. Kids are truly just expected to have learned a lot more (among other things) to get into the schools that start them on the path to a job at BCG or Bain by 25.

But it’s okay not to want that. It’s okay to want to go to a Regional State School and get a degree and a job and have a life. To work reasonably hard and make reasonable money. I do have some anxiety that as the gap between rich and poor grows, the “reasonable” jobs may become scarcer, but for now, they seem to exist.

The problem is pride, and its ugly sisters, racism and classism. Mommy wars are real, y’all. Feeling like your kids are somehow inferior to their peers is rough, and if you decide that the courses your student is in are a sign of their worth, you will push them into that “most ambitious” path. And they will pick up your fears and learn to push themselves. In a lot of communities, the most advanced courses are where the rich and/or white kids all are, and everyone internalizes that.

I admit I get really, really frustrated with students who pile up intensive course work and then want special grace because they opted into such a situation. I teach in a top ranked STEM high school. Our kids can take calculus as Freshmen–and most take it no later than sophomore year. All our students take at least 15 AP classes before they graduate, and many take 18-20. It’s a program of choice, designed to prepare kids for elite STEM programs. Of course it’s a stupid amount of work. It’s not designed for everyone. The thing we are really, really good at is taking low-income, first-generation students and launching them straight into the upper middle class. They come here to do that. But we also get a fair number of upper middle class parents who sent their kids here because it was prestigious and who then try to turn us into a normal school, by comparing us to what they think a teenager’s workload “ought” to be. I feel like they thought this was the school for the bestest, most specialist kids, not the school with the toughest work. So their special babies should, if anything, get less work. You can’t suggest they take less than the most rigorous courses, because “good” kids don’t do that.

There are also kids who are so perfectionist that they will turn any amount of assignments into 6 hours of homework a night. I’ve had parent conferences where the parent was upset about the amount of homework for a kid who was making all 97s and above. When we suggest that they, you know, be a little more relaxed about some assignments instead of triple checking everything and studying exhaustively for every test, the parent always responds “Oh no, my student’s dream is to be valedictorian”. Well, okay then. That’s a stupid dream, but this is what that takes. That’s why it’s special, albeit worthless.

From the teacher’s point of view

All that said, even where I am, people assign to much work. These are the reasons I see:

  • “Accountability”. Teachers live and die by test scores these days. If they aren’t what’s expected, you have to demonstrate that it wasn’t your fault. If people feel like a class was “easy” and they fail, they blame you. If they were drowning in work each night, it’s their own fault for not doing all of it. It’s also true that if you are assigning tons of work and grading tons of work, you are working all the time, so low test scores can’t be your fault because you are truly trying your best. I’m not being sarcastic here: we feel responsible for our students’ educations, and the less we work, the more we worry we are shirking our responsibilities. And honestly, try it. Go to the community and say “we are reducing homework. We expect a moderate drop in AP and SAT scores”. People will lose their minds.

  • Cluelessness. Almost every teacher I know is bad at estimating how long something will take. Years and years ago, I had a parent I liked and trusted call me to let me know a project I assigned had taken their son 12 hours, that she sat and watched him at the dining room table working all day. I was a fairly experienced teacher at the time (10 years or so) and I would have described that as a 5-6 hour project, tops. Kids, even smart kids, are just slow processors. Have you ever sat and watched 15 year olds write essays? It can legit take 45 minutes to write a paragraph–like this paragraph I am writing. And I mean kids who later went to Harvard. It’s really hard to believe that, as an adult. So everyone thinks they are assigning 30-45 minutes of homework, but it’s really more like 2 hours.

  • Unrealistic expectations. I do work with some people who really sincerely believe an hour of tutoring and 2 hours of homework every day for just their class is reasonable. That if a student really wants to be successful, they can make that commitment.

  • Autopilot. Some teachers really don’t think. They don’t try to reduce. They just assign homework sorta at random, with no real understanding or plan–just like “oh yeah, homework. Do the problems at the end of the chapter” or whatever. Electronic platforms make this even easier. They aren’t really deciding anything. And to be fair, we get no training on this. What is enough practice? What Should practice look like, in a discipline?

So, long story long, it’s complicated.

It’s a shame so many people waste their lives trying to be happy and have friends instead of dedicating their lives to getting into a competitive university. Let’s hope those people aren’t a bad influence on your daughter.

Where is this? I got 6.5 hours in high school. (I suspect some parents would prefer this, as the school schedule would align with their work schedules.)

We sent Sophia to a college preparatory academy for her high school and 3 hours of homework was a minimum for her. The first year was tough - 9th graders learning Cornell notes and all that - but it got easier as they adjusted to the workload. And, as I noted above and also in my post about The Gestalt (the hive mind our kids have because of their phones), the homework pressures are intense and the ways the children deal with it are different as well.

What we cannot do is expect the same rules and expectations which worked in 1984 to work today. They are just inadequate for the situation:

Anyway, yes, there is a lot of homework. And the kids are handling it in different ways than we would because they have technology to both intellectually assist and emotionally support each other which we did not have. And that’s OK.

What I recall most about the homework assignments my kids got in high school was that it was “busy work” homework. Too often they were required to sit and draw or color some bullshit graphic. I recall asking once why these kinds of assignments were given to high school students and the response was, ‘Kids seem to enjoy them’. I called bullshit on that but the teacher just shrugged helplessly and blamed the schoolboard curriculum.

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Not too sure where this is coming from, TriPolar. I don’t even think MM was addressing you, and then you make this comment about their kid? Seriously?

Sorry, @Mighty_Mouse, that was supposed to be general commentary, I didn’t do that well. You sound like you are concerned about the effect of this amount of homework on your daughter and I didn’t mean my comments to reflect specifically on you or your daughter.

Good call on my bad @JohnT

lol, no problem. I just take the Mafia attitude on message boarding - shoot at each other all we want, but family is off limits. And sometimes what we wanted to say is not always what we said, so that can be an issue too. :slight_smile:

I agree, family should definitely be off limits.

I got my first mod note this week, so I was holding my fire :slight_smile:

Awesome! Now that we are vaxxed…

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I don’t know that it’s always a waste. It’s just a choice. If your family is very poor, sacrificing the “typical” HS experience is the best way to have a “typical” middle class or upper middle class life for yourself and your kids; if your family is affluent, it’s the only way to stay in the same world you grew up with. And if your family is in the middle, you may well just be the sort of person who thrives on stress and competition. And there can be camaraderie in that sort of environment, too. People practice sports 4 hours a day, and that’s a weird choice too, but it’s the world some people want.

I’ve seen some very emotionally healthy kids in the “academic grind” path. Seen some very unhealthy ones, too. The problem is people thinking it’s not a choice, it’s the expectation or the only way.

That sums it up quite well.

A big difference between my high school and college homework was that that majority of the high school homework was assignments to be turned in and graded. Whereas college was much more reading and supplemental material. My pchem professor was not grading problem sets. But if you weren’t doing them, well, good for you if you didn’t need to, but I sure did!

I think it’s harder to give a 14-year-old some problems and tell them “you pick the ones that will help you the most – there’s a test in three weeks.” Sure, some have their shit together enough to manage, but a lot don’t. So the teacher assigns all of them and makes them mandatory, even though they don’t in any way match every student’s needs.