# Kids in school refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705 "2001-01-12T15:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/41 "2001-01-13T00:29:36Z")
I just have to say that I found GREAT irony in Moongazer saying how the flag stands for our rights and freedoms…while he beats the living crap out of someone who chooses to exercise that freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/42 "2001-01-13T00:39:28Z")
Jello: y’know, there’s a difference between living in an imperfect country and living in a dictatorship. You are free to work to improve the country, no one’s going to be upset by that. But when you complain that you have no rights, etc, etc, you make yourself look ridiculous. Yes, sometimes demonstrators are arrested when they break the law, such as when they block public streets without permission. Tell you what. Go over to Helsinki and walk out into downtown traffic holding a sign about free speech and refuse to move. How long do you think it will take before the crypto-fascist phallocratic Swedish cops arrest you? I’m sure Sweden is a great place to live, but they do have laws and such over there. And bet they have some laws that would shock your freedom-worshipping heart to the core…like State Religion! Yes, Sweden has an officially recognized Government Christian Church. Taxpayer money funds the Lutheran Church! Chaos! Theocracy! Or not. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/43 "2001-01-13T00:47:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*I just have to say that I found GREAT irony in Moongazer saying how the flag stands for our rights and freedoms…while he beats the living crap out of someone who chooses to exercise that freedom. > > \*\* And actually seemed proud of it. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/44 "2001-01-13T00:55:12Z")
Heh. As it happens, that’s why my interest in First Amendment issues makes me so interested in the Second. I happily stand for the pledge (I skip the God part), and for the National Anthem (I don’t sing it; but trust me, that _is_ a sign of respect!). But if I came upon someone committing an act of physical violence on a person exercising his First Amendment rights, in the absence of a police presence, I would sure be glad that the Second Amendment afforded me an ability to defend the First. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/45 "2001-01-13T00:57:02Z")
This is very weird. Apparently, citizens of the United States enjoy absolute freedom and paradise on earth because they do not live in a third-world dictatorship with cattle prods, etc. I’ve noticed that the United States has an odd habit of boosting itself by comparing itself favourably with banana republics, rather than, say, Denmark. At any rate: back to the non-specific patriotism issue. I am a very patriotic person. One might even say nationalistic. I love my fellow citizens (at least as such) and I respect the ideals which Canadians have come to believe in, so much so that I ran for Parliament as a New Democrat to defend those beliefs. (Not because I know they’re Canadian, but because I believe they’re right.) But I won’t sing “God keep our land glorious and free.” Or “Car ton bras sait porter l’épée, il sait porter la croix.” And I don’t believe that we should have a constitution that “recognizes the supremacy of God.” And I was severely pissed off at Alexa McDonough and Lorne Nystrom for busting Svend Robinson to the back benches for submitting a petition from his constituents to have that piece of language removed. Why? Because I believe that a secular, pluralistic federation has no business imputing the personal sanction of Jehovah to each and every one of her citizens, particularly those that do not believe in that particular deity, such as myself. I don’t think that any god has a hand in keeping our country glorious and free. That’s its citizens’ job. I don’t think that because our hand knows how to carry a sword, it knows how to carry a cross. We carried swords in two world wars so as _not_ to have to carry crosses we don’t believe in. And the constitution is an act of civil government which does not require the imprimatur of the holy ghost. When I serve and honour my country, I do it without worshiping a god in whom I do not believe. That’s my right, and it is in fact because that is my right that my country is worth serving and honouring. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/46 "2001-01-13T00:58:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoboDude \* > **"The best reason not to burn the flag is that you can burn the flag."** Conversely, once you can’t burn the flag, that is the best time of all to burn the flag. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/47 "2001-01-13T00:59:12Z")
Sorry, those last two posts were from me, not Hamish. Roommates, same computer, cookies, etc. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/48 "2001-01-13T01:06:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheMoonGazer \* > \*\*I guess children’s rights are OK, but that flag is the symbol of the United States, which gives them the freedom to have rights in the first place!" > \*\* The United States does not “give” fundamental human rights. It **recognizes** and **guarantees** them. The rights themselves are a “self-evident” consequence of personhood. It is a fundamental error to say that the United States gives its citizens rights. > [@](#): > > **The Government has no aesthetic or property interest in protecting a mere aggregation of stripes and stars for its own sake.** > _Kime v. United States_, 459 U.S. 949, 953 (1982) (J. Brennan, dissenting from denial of writ of certiorari). > [@](#): > > \*\*We can imagine no more appropriate response to burning a flag than waving one’s own, no better way to counter a flag burner’s message than by saluting the flag that burns, no surer means of preserving the dignity even of the flag that burned than by - as one witness here did - according its remains a respectful burial. We do not consecrate the flag by punishing its desecration, for in doing so we dilute the freedom that this cherished emblem represents. \*\* > _Texas v. Johnson_, 491 U.S. 397, 419 (1989) > [@](#): > > \*\*It is poignant but fundamental that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt. \*\* > _Johnson_, 491 U.S. at 421 (J. Kennedy, concurring) ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/49 "2001-01-13T01:25:20Z")
Uh, Lemur, dunno where you were during your Geography class (saluting the flag, perhaps?), but Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Stockholm is the capital of Sweden. Thought I might point that out. As for me, I have a healthy respect for some of the accomplishments of this country. There are many incidents in the history of America that I am not proud of - Manifest Destiny, the Vietnam War, the Mexican War, and so forth. The idea that America is some sort of utopian society of freedoms that must be pledged allegiance to is fundamentally flawed. And I do not pledge allegiance to the flag on Monday or Friday mornings (assembly at school), although I do stand for it. ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/50 "2001-01-13T01:33:00Z")
You know, Lemur, reading your post again, I find another flaw. > [@](#): > > Yes, sometimes demonstrators are arrested when they break the law, such as when they block public streets without permission. Tell you what. Go over to Helsinki and walk out into downtown traffic holding a sign about free speech and refuse to move. How long do you think it will take before the crypto-fascist phallocratic Swedish cops arrest you? Putting aside your “crypto-fascist phallocratic” insult for the moment, you do realize that if you were to stand in the middle of traffic in America, you would also be placed under arrest if you refused to move? The police tend to frown on people placing themselves in harm’s way. You are free, both in this country and in Sweden, to get a permit to set aside a time and place to assemble and speak your peace. Your supposed example of the “fascism” of the Swedish government undermines any credibility in your argument, at least in my view. ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/51 "2001-01-13T01:42:04Z")
Uh, Lemur, dunno where you were during your Geography class (saluting the flag, perhaps?), but Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Stockholm is the capital of Sweden. Thought I might point that out. As for me, I have a healthy respect for some of the accomplishments of this country. There are many incidents in the history of America that I am not proud of - Manifest Destiny, the Vietnam War, the Mexican War, and so forth. The idea that America is some sort of utopian society of freedoms that must be pledged allegiance to is fundamentally flawed. And I do not pledge allegiance to the flag on Monday or Friday mornings (assembly at school), although I do stand for it. ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/52 "2001-01-13T01:43:32Z")
Uh… heh… whoops. That’ll teach me to use the back button on my IntelliMouse to get back to the forum. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/53 "2001-01-13T01:45:43Z")
When my son went to school, they gave one of those deadly class production things, where they stand there and sing tunelessly, gesture clumsily, etc. To my surprise, for the song they did John Lennon’s _Imagine_. I remember thinking, jeeez, I really get behind this song, but I’m not at all sure I want 10 year old kids instructed to sing “…imagine there’s no heaven., its easy if you try…” I reserve the right to do my own parental indoctrination, I assume other parents feel much the same. All indoctrination of children is pretty bad. Luckily, it almost never works. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/54 "2001-01-13T02:25:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Lemur866_ > I’m sure Sweden is a great place to live, but they do have laws and such over there. And bet they have some laws that would shock your freedom-worshipping heart to the core…like State Religion! Yes, Sweden has an officially recognized Government Christian Church. Taxpayer money funds the Lutheran Church! Chaos! Theocracy! Or not. Actually, the benighted Swedes have finally caught up with Thomas Jefferson and James Madison–they [disestablished their church last year](http://www.au.org/cs59916.htm). (You’ll have to scroll down a bit on that page; the article is titled “Swedish Primate Welcomes Church Disestablishment”). Of course, the Swedes still aren’t _perfect_–the article does indicate that the government over there still collects a tax or “fee” on behalf of the Lutheran Church, but at least now they don’t collect any fees any more from people who aren’t even members of the Lutheran Church. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by SanibelMan_ > Putting aside your “crypto-fascist phallocratic” insult for the moment, you do realize that if you were to stand in the middle of traffic in America, you would also be placed under arrest if you refused to move? The police tend to frown on people placing themselves in harm’s way. You are free, both in this country and in Sweden, to get a permit to set aside a time and place to assemble and speak your peace. Your supposed example of the “fascism” of the Swedish government undermines any credibility in your argument, at least in my view. Although you did have him dead to rights on the whole Helsinki/Sweden thing, I think you’re clearly missing the irony in **Lemur866** ’s “crypto-fascist phallocratic cops” remark, and also the basic point of what he was saying to **Jello**. Jello said “What they do do is arrest you if you protest (614 people were arrested at the convention protests…either 4 or 6 were convicted, I forget which, but still) or suspend you from school” and Lemur replied, in effect, that police in _any_ country are apt to arrest protesters when they do things like block streets and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/55 "2001-01-13T02:39:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheMoonGazer \* > I read a short clip in an article where it was mentioned that teachers in school can’t even get some students to stand for the pledge of allegiance. Out of idle curiosity: exactly how much does this have to do with educating the tykes? > [@](#): > > I thought, what the f\*\*k? There are some things you just _do_! No excuses. Oh, I see. You don’t want them educated. You want them marching in lock-step. > [@](#): > > After a bit of thinking about it all, Yet you’re attempting to deny someone else’s right to think. > [@](#): > > I figured that any kid not willing to stand during the Pledge, should be dragged down to the principals office and disciplined. Listen up, if you will: I and many others on this board are some of the many who have served to defend the Constitution. That constitution establishes a Rule of Law and Government by the People. You, on the other hand, are setting yourself up as the sole arbiter of another’s actions. > [@](#): > > I guess children’s rights are OK, We differ here, also. You guess those rights are okay. I am firmly convinced that everyone has rights. I spent over 20 years of my life defending that concept. > [@](#): > > but that flag is the symbol of the United States, which gives them the freedom to have rights in the first place! The flag does not give freedom; the country recognizes those freedoms. Evidently, this concept is too subtle for you. > [@](#): > > I mean, Dude! This is valleyspeak for what? > [@](#): > > There is such as thing as respect! Sure is. So exactly why didn’t you respect that protestor exercising his rights? > [@](#): > > There is such a thing as honoring those who have laid down their lives to give those kids the right to show up in school dressed like clowns and get all surly about everything. As one of the many who’ve defended Americans’ rights, I am very proud to say I am honored when someone avails themselves of the very rights I’ve defended. Makes me proud to live in this land. Your admitted misconduct, on the other hand, is a disgrace. > [@](#): > > The Flag stands for those who have gone before to keep us free, whether or not you agree with their actions. No qupee doll for MoonGazer! The flag is an inanimate representation to identify a particular nation. A good education in History and Civics is what I consider to be something standing for those who have gone before me to defend this land. > [@](#): > > A kid who refuses to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance is in essence, spitting on the flag! No, that is a child who is doing one of the following: - Exercising his freedom as recognized in the First Amendment to the Constitution. - Demonstrating that he has not lost his liberty without due process of law. And this very well could mean he was obeying his, or his parents’, religous values, as has already been explained to you. > [@](#): > > In the 80s man, I was watching a protest and some dude spit on the flag and stomped it in the dirt and I busted his head. So, you’re saying you don’t give a hoot about the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments either? > [@](#): > > I spent the night in jail, That was because you were lawfully arrested, **read your rights** , and brought before a magistrate the next day, no doubt. {See below for disclaimer.} > [@](#): > > and sure he has the right to do what he did Damn right he does. It’s called Freedom of Speech. Fascinating concept. Especially when his exercise of said freedom did not harm anyone. > [@](#): > > but I’ve the right to defend the honor of the Flag! Not when it comes to causing bodily harm to another person who is exercising his rights. You, however, committed two atrocities: (1) assaulting another person, & (2) denied that person his civil liberties. > [@](#): > > I was never charged with anything. Time for disclaimer. You may not have been charged with anything, only let off with a warning. This by no means authenticates your unlawful assault. Most likely, it means the DA’s office considered the night in jail a good life lesson for you and that letting you go with that lesson would serve the people better than spending the taxpayers’ nickel on your trial. Evidently, the DA’s office erred. You learned nothing, apparently, from that stay. IMHO, a trial would have shown you how serious your crime is. > [@](#): > > You might not agree with everything which has gone on in the States, but you live in a free land because of most of it, have the right to do almost anything and say anything you want. You got a kid in school that you don’t care if he stands for the pledge or not, then maybe you need to consider moving elsewhere, like Somalia, Egypt, Cuba, or Russia. You kind of lost me in the beginning, but here’s what a retired Petty Officer First Class of the US Navy has to say on this: - I do not agree with everything that goes on in the country. I certainly don’t agree with your illegal action, of which you are so proud. - I do agree that this land is ruled by Law; you know, that nifty little Constitution of which you evidently don’t give a hoot about SEVEN of the Amendments. BTW, I’m that retired PO1. > [@](#): > > I’m stunned that the school let these kids get away with that. Yeah, the school administration “let these kids get away with” exercising their rights. Sounds like at least one teacher, the one who taught them Civics, did his job! To that teacher, I say, “BRAVO ZULU!” > [@](#): > > When I was in school, we all stood and recited the pledge. Things change. This change is for the better. > [@](#): > > The only time I can understand a kid not standing for it is if he or she is not an American citizen, but even then, it wouldn’t hurt to stand out of respect and courtesy. Whether you understand something is not the criteria for the validity of that thing. Damn good thing, too, as you certainly evidence no understanding of this country’s basic law, the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/56 "2001-01-13T02:50:32Z")
Funny the OP hasn’t come back to defend his position… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/57 "2001-01-13T03:21:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Demise \* > Gee, what’s worse, people like the OP, or people like Jello? > > They both irritate the hell out of me. Yeah, being irritated is really comparable being beaten up :rolleyes:. Danimal: > [@](#): > > If this country actually lacked freedom of speech, the government would kill you or imprison you as soon as its spies traced your IP address. Freedom isn’t an all or nothing proposition. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/58 "2001-01-13T03:28:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Funny the OP hasn’t come back to defend his position… > \*\* What, you don’t consider “Wah, wah, I don’t like the Bill of Rights, wah, wah” to be a defense? ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/59 "2001-01-13T04:36:18Z")
A lot of my family has served in the military. I am incredibly proud of all of them, and regret that I cannot do the same thing. I’m patriotic, proud of my country, and I love the USA despite it’s faults. I will not, however, say that pledge. I will stand and I will be quiet, but I have not said it since the day that I realized that there is a great dishonesty in _liberty and justice **for all** _. Calling yourself a patriot is a disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/60 "2001-01-13T04:36:51Z")
> [@](#): > > One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections… Wow. I didn’t know there was such a decision with language like that out there. And **Jello** , the fundamental difference between the U.S. and a lot of other countries (possibly Sweden is included, I don’t know for sure) is that in many countries the government follows the logic of MoonGazer: it _gives_ you rights. Here, we are governed only by consent, as **KellyM** so correctly pointed out. This comes up in practical situations: years ago Nat Hentoff wrote of a principal who called in the NYC police to open a student’s locker so he could search it, as the student had refused to open the locker voluntarily. The policeman just laughed, and told him to get a warrant. He knew the principal had no right to just summarily ask for a search of the student’s possessions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705.md?page=4)