# Kids in school refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705 "2001-01-12T15:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Upham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Upham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Upham)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/61 "2001-01-13T04:53:18Z")
A Super American (as i like to call them) once bothered me to join in the Pledge of Allegiance. “Yer in Amaaaaarka boay, yew’d best respect the flag that’s-a keepin yer commie country free!” What could i do but respect his wishes and oblige? > [@](#): > > I do pledge that i will bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, her heirs and successors, according to the Law, So help me God Now granted, had i been in Canada i would have refused - i bear no allegiance what so ever to the Queen of England - but it was just so nice to watch the vein on that mans neck get bigger… Upham ---
**Author:** ![Adventurious82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e495f1/32.png) [@Adventurious82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Adventurious82)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/62 "2001-01-13T05:21:53Z")
I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance in school. All of the way through to graduation, every morning, everyone stood to say it. Some did not recite the oath, but all stood out of respect and because they were required to. Had I been with TheMoonGazer, I’d have joined him in belting the disrespectful protester. I don’t care that he has the right to soil the flag, I care that he was soiling the symbol of what I personally consider the greatest nation in the world, soiling the memory of all of those who fought to keep her free, soiling the very Bill of Rights which gives him the liberty to do as he did, soiling the very Constitution of the United States. He was spitting on the blood of hundreds of thousands of soldiers who fought and died for the flag. He was spitting on the symbol of the country. In my opinion, he could have voiced his protest differently. Years ago, disgracing the flag would have gotten you put in jail. If you go into the National Museum and pee on the constitution, you’ll go to jail, after the Marine honor guard hammers you into hamburger. Some things are sacred. The flag is one because it stands for so much. If one dislikes it and what it stands for, then one should leave this nation and never again set foot on this soil. What do you think would happen if someone spit on the Queen in England? She is the symbol of the British Empire. You think such a person would escape unbattered? Such a person might not escape alive from surrounding crowds. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/63 "2001-01-13T05:43:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Adventurious82 \* > **Had I been with TheMoonGazer, I’d have joined him in belting the disrespectful protester. I don’t care that he has the right to soil the flag, I care that he was soiling the symbol of what I personally consider the greatest nation in the world, soiling the memory of all of those who fought to keep her free, soiling the very Bill of Rights which gives him the liberty to do as he did, soiling the very Constitution of the United States. He was spitting on the blood of hundreds of thousands of soldiers who fought and died for the flag.** Which, oddly enough, is well within his rights to free speech. You, however, do not have the right to be a violent jerkoff using thug tactics to enforce your will outside the rules established by that Constitution you consider so sacred. It is the equivalent of being a Christian and punching out someone who throws away a Bible, nevermind that Jesus said “turn the other cheek.” > [@](#): > > \*\* > He was spitting on the symbol of the country. In my opinion, he could have voiced his protest differently.\*\* Well, we don’t like your opinion and now we’re going to club you over the head for it! Yes, that’s how you sound to the more rational folks here. > [@](#): > > \*\* Years ago, disgracing the flag would have gotten you put in jail. If you go into the National Museum and pee on the constitution, you’ll go to jail, after the Marine honor guard hammers you into hamburger.\*\* First, years ago you’d have gone to jail for helping a runaway slave - what’s your point? Sorry, but the good old days never existed. Second, your example of the National Archives is not related, as the document in question belongs to a specific entity and is not the property of the person doing the urination. Perhaps in your jack-booted marching in lock step fantasy land, private property has no meaning to you? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Some things are sacred. The flag is one because it stands for so much. If one dislikes it and what it stands for, then one should leave this nation and never again set foot on this soil.\*\* America! Love it or leave it! Wow, is this an original thought of yours? > [@](#): > > **What do you think would happen if someone spit on the Queen in England? She is the symbol of the British Empire.** She is? Someone should tell my wife, because she’s British and is convinced that the Union Jack is the symbol of Great Britain. Additionally, you might want to try to learn the difference between a) burning your own personal property and b) an attack on a living human being. You’re funny; although I don’t think you meant to be. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/64 "2001-01-13T05:50:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoboDude \* > \*\*In a thread debating the proposed Flag Burning Amendment, I remember someone said: > > “The best reason not to burn the flag is that you can burn the flag.” > > As soon as we stop recognizing the right to dissent, we become far worse than those we seek to silence. \*\* Normally, I wouldn’t jump in to say that “that was me!!!” but since I was going to use that line again, I think I will, so that I don’t look like I’m stealing it. And **matt\_mcl** , I agree 100%. (Oh, and if someone goes back and finds that I didn’t say that originally, I just want to say that I haven’t checked, but I know that I’ve been saying this for at least 5 years, and if I didnt’ post it in that particular thread, I should have.) ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/65 "2001-01-13T06:56:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Had I been with TheMoonGazer, I’d have joined him in belting the disrespectful protester. And had _I_ been there, I would have kicked your ass in his defense. Because though I do not agree with the views he is expressing, I would defend his right to express them. > [@](#): > > …the memory of all of those who fought to keep her free, soiling the very Bill of Rights which gives him the liberty to do as he did, soiling the very Constitution of the United States And by attacking him, you are doing what exactly? Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, pot! > [@](#): > > In my opinion, he could have voiced his protest differently Must we all agree with your opinion? In my opinion, your views are anti-freedom, unconstitutional, arrogant and also ignorant. Should the government come by and force you to agree with me? > [@](#): > > Years ago, disgracing the flag would have gotten you put in jail. Years ago? There is a reason thing were like that _then_, but not _now_. We have made mistakes in the PAST. Bringing up past laws hardly justifies anything. Remember slavery? Remember women not being able to vote. Remember no mimimum wage or labor laws? Our society is allowed to improve… why don’t you let it. > [@](#): > > If you go into the National Museum and pee on the constitution, you’ll go to jail, Do you honestly not see the flaws in your analogies??? If you peed on the original document that is IN A MUSEUM, of course you would be arrested. It is an irreplacable piece of history. You would be arrested for the physical artifact you destroyed, not for insulting what it represented. You can buy copies or the constitution and piss on them all day long. No one will bother you. (Except the occassional idiot who likes go belting people on the head for not believing what he believes… Oh, you know someone like that?) > [@](#): > > The flag is one because it stands for so much. If one dislikes it and what it stands for, then one should leave this nation and never again set foot on this soil Again with the arrogance. Who are you to say where people should live. Sure it bothers me. It insults me, but I am proud to live in a country that allows them to do this. If I do not like what they have to say, I do not have to pay attention to them. If they are burning a flag, I don’t have to WATCH!! > [@](#): > > What do you think would happen if someone spit on the Queen in England? The same thing that would happen if someone spit on President Clinton. This is and _should be_ illegal. No one is allowed to spit on YOU either. And, more importantly, no one is allowed to come pound your face in just because you are burning a flag. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/66 "2001-01-13T07:27:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Upham \* > \*\*“Yer in Amaaaaarka boay, yew’d best respect the flag that’s-a keepin yer commie country free!” > > What could i do but respect his wishes and oblige? > > > [@](#): > > > > I do pledge that i will bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, her heirs and successors, according to the Law, So help me God > > \*\* Zing!!! I _so_ have to remember that. Just in case I’m ever in this situation. (BTW, what were you sharing in where people were pledging allegiance?) ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/67 "2001-01-13T07:54:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jello \* > **The naturalization oath they make people recite is even worse…** Really? What’s so wrong with: > [@](#): > > I hereby declare, on oath, > > that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; > > that I will support and defend the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; > > that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; > > that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; > > that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; > > that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and > > that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. At least there is no allegiance being pled to a flag in there. I have no problem with swearing to “support and defend the Constitution” and am in fact prepared to do so in the unlikely event that I ever finish law school (substantially similiar language appears in the oath of lawyers in most states). ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/68 "2001-01-13T14:11:35Z")
HM Elizabeth II may indeed be held by some to embody the British Commonwealth but to many of us Brits she also represents many other things much less admirable. It is this very reason the the US consitution exists at all, and the acknowledgement of the rights of its citizens. ---
**Author:** ![TheMoonGazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b2d939/32.png) [@TheMoonGazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMoonGazer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/69 "2001-01-13T15:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Funny the OP hasn’t come back to defend his position… Sorry, Dude, but I do work occasionally. > [@](#): > > Oh, I see. You don’t want them educated. You want them marching in lock-step. Where have I read something similar to this, many boring times before? School is an institution. In that institution you have rules and regulations to follow, which, over the recent years, have begun to be eroded away by anyone with a lawyer. It’s OK now for kids to have no dress code, to insult teachers, to refuse to take drug tests, to claim discrimination on religious or racial reasons, to pass into higher grades even though they have not met the minimal requirements, to have teachers arrested if one so much as grabs one of their arms, and to freely disrupt classes. This open disrespect of the symbol of the nation seems to me to be a sign of a greater problem happening among the populace. Everyone has rights to snub authority, to infringe on the rights or freedoms of others, to publicly slander anyone or anything they choose, to offend anyone over any reason without concern of repercussions. Parents don’t seem to be concerned at all to instill respect in their kids for anything but money. Then they wonder why later, when the kids grow up, that they have such selfish and sh\*\*\*y attitudes and don’t hold anything sacred. > [@](#): > > No qupee doll for MoonGazer! The flag is an inanimate representation to identify a particular nation. A good education in History and Civics is what I consider to be something standing for those who have gone before me to defend this land. The flag is a symbol for the nation and for what efforts were made to make the nation what it is today. When I was in school, we were taught respect for the Flag. I was in Boy Scouts and we were also taught respect for the Flag, along with how to handle and care for it as well as how to dispose of a worn out one. Do you know that if an American flag touches the ground, it is to be destroyed? Do you know that if it needs to be destroyed, it is to be taken somewhere private, quietly burned and the ashes buried, not just wadded up and tossed out with the garbage. No one hammered these concepts into us, they just taught us why and how and our own respect for the symbol of the nation did the rest. Any Scout showing major disrespect for the flag, like spitting or stomping on it, would have been kicked out of the program. I guess today, in the Scouts, lawyers would defend his rights to show disrespect to the symbol of the nation and sue the Scouts for kicking him out. > [@](#): > > When I serve and honour my country, I do it without worshiping a god in whom I do not believe. That’s my right, and it is in fact because that is my right that my country is worth serving and honouring. You don’t walk into a church you don’t believe in and spit on the cross, Torah or Holy relics do you? > [@](#): > > We were taught, and sincerely believed, that when the poor and oppressed around the world heard “The Americans are coming!” they gave a glad shout, help was on the way! The truth was very different, as we came to learn. Not until those nations got major billions in American funds, technology, food and weapons did they suddenly decide to bite the hand that fed them. Read ‘the Day of the Triffids’, written by an Englishman, science fiction surely, but quite early, and they mention that ‘soon the Americans will come and they’ll make everything all right.’ That view is mentioned again and again in books of the time by foreign writers. It started changing during the 60s, when Communism was busily going around and trying to undermine anything American. Even today, scores of nations depend heavily on American funds, protection, assistance, charity and tools. It is just that since the 80s, our news media likes to portray anti-American sentiment as being the basic attitude of most nations. It sells papers. > [@](#): > > Flags are obscenity, if all they reflect is a nation, not an ideal. The Flag is a symbol of that nation, with all of its ideals. > [@](#): > > You are a thug. I am ashamed of you. I guess I am. I also believe in spanking my kids, variable dress codes in schools, returning authority to the teachers, not suing everyone for every slight infringement, keeping a strong military, and letting kids celebrate Halloween. > [@](#): > > Needless to say, this includes your right to be disgusted by me, just as it includes my right to be disgusting. Absolutely. I find you disgusting. > [@](#): > > When in the presence of others who take the pledge seriously (the Boy Scouts, sailing clubs, etc), I stand and recite it. Thank you! Time and time again, people in other nations less opulent than this one have voiced the opinion that Americans have it too good. It seems that whenever people have plenty of food, luxuries, good health, ample sources of free knowledge, secure and fair laws, suddenly all they get concerned about is their rights and how their nation really sucks after all. Something like spoiled, pampered children who have never had to struggle for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/70 "2001-01-13T16:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Everyone has rights to snub authority Only nonviolently and in a way that does not interfere with their lawful duties. > [@](#): > > (Everyone has rights) to infringe on the rights or freedoms of others No they don’t. > [@](#): > > Everyone has the right) to publicly slander anyone or anything they choose Not to slander. Slander is “false statements injurious to a person’s reputation”. You can say whatever you want about a person as long as it’s true. And you always have the right to voice your opinion about the government and other people. This is a great freedom that not all countries have. Can’t you see that this is a GOOD thing? Why are you so against people who do not believe what you believe- people who do not find the same things you do sacred. When all the Cubans in Tampa (and there is a whole shit load. Ever hear of Ybor City or Tampa Cigars?) got pissed off about Elian, they were aloud to go out with signs and march and get all pissed off. I did not agree with most of the things they were saying. But I don’t think clubbing them all over the head is the answer. I welcome their protest, provided it stays legal. Do you think any Cubans in Cuba got to protest against Castro? I bet most of them wanted the boy to stay in America. But none of them were aloud to believe this. None of them were aloud to express this opinion. They were worst to attend rallies in support of the return of Elian. Would you rather live in such a country??? > [@](#): > > (Everyone has the right) to offend anyone over any reason without concern of repercussions And what is so wrong about this? Did something someone do hurt your feelings?? Well poor baby! Get over it!!! If something offends you, dont watch it. Leave the area or change the channel. They have as much right to express their opinions as you do. And they have as much right to not get pummeled as you do. Change the channel if you don’t like the KKK guy on public access. > [@](#): > > Parents don’t seem to be concerned at all to instill respect in their kids for anything but money. Then they wonder why later, when the kids grow up, that they have such selfish and sh\*\*\*y attitudes and don’t hold anything sacred. What the hell does this have to do with our freedom of expression? Should this even be anywhere in the argument? > [@](#): > > You don’t walk into a church you don’t believe in and spit on the cross, Torah or Holy relics do you? No. That would be illegal. But if I decide to get my own relics and crosses and shit on them and hang them up outside my house. Or spit on them in public, I better not have some sorry ass Nazi come by and try to stop me. > [@](#): > > The Flag is a symbol of that nation, with all of its ideals. Should we stop insulting the President while we’re at it? Should we pass a law that prevents any person from writing satire about the President, or for speaking out against his actions? After all, he is the _President_. Does he not represent out country too? Would you like it better if we were not allowed to have a negative opinion or express a negative view toward our _Great Leader_? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I guess I am. I also believe in spanking my kids… Nothing wrong or illegal there. Provided you spank between the rear mid thigh and the small of the back and you do not leave permanant damage… But what about people who do not beieve in spanking their kids? Should we force them to think like us? > [@](#): > > … variable dress codes in schools, Sorry, I’m against this. Don’t attack me for protesting it. > [@](#): > > returning authority to the teachers, I like this one. (But does it have anything to do with freedom of expression?) > [@](#): > > not suing everyone for every slight infringement Be more specific. Let me guess, are you going to mention the McDonald’s Coffee caper?? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > …keeping a strong military Me too!! Provided said military does not try to oppress my beliefs or force me to think the way they would like? > [@](#): > > and letting kids celebrate Halloween And the people who do not celebrate this for religious reasons- are you going to egg their house for not giving you candy… I bet you have, haven’t you. > [@](#): > > Absolutely. I find you disgusting. In _your_ America, people would not be able to say such things. You have preached all day long about not offending others… and then you call someone disgusting. Boy, you sure are making sense… > [@](#): > > Time and time again, people in other nations less opulent than this one have voiced the opinion that Americans have it too good So now you are even insulted by people in other countries who do not share you views about your flag and country?? You must live a stressful life. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/71 "2001-01-13T16:43:42Z")
\*\*They were _worst_ to attend rallies in support of the return of Elian. Would you rather live in such a country??? \*\* That should be _FORCED TO ATTEND…_ You never would have figured that one out. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/72 "2001-01-13T17:26:58Z")
This is going to be long, so bear with me, folks. The quoted stuff was “Originally posted by TheMoonGazer” & my responses are between the quoted segments. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Funny the OP hasn’t come back to defend his position… > > Sorry, Dude, but I do work occasionally. Would that you would occasionaly learn instead. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Oh, I see. You don’t want them educated. You want them marching in lock-step. > > Where have I read something similar to this, many boring times before? Perhaps listening to those who know what they’re talking about responding to intolerant and illegal behaviour such as the one you described yourself as engaging in. > [@](#): > > School is an institution. In that institution you have rules and regulations to follow, which, over the recent years, have begun to be eroded away by anyone with a lawyer. Yet another newsflash: There are both private and government-run schools. Private schools can require, as a condition of matriculation, that students adhere to a certain code of behaviour, so long as the school is not peforming any illegal acts. The government-run schools, on the other hand, can not deny any rights to the student. The private school is basically a private association and the government school is part of the government. > [@](#): > > It’s OK now for kids to have no dress code, Actually, you’re sadly misinformed. Some government schools have dress codes. > [@](#): > > to insult teachers, Well, it’s never okay to be rude, but there is such a thing as free speech and I don’t remember any law that says “Rudeness is a crime.” > [@](#): > > to refuse to take drug tests, I was right. You don’t give a damn about the Fourth Amendment. > [@](#): > > to claim discrimination on religious or racial reasons, Of course it’s okay to claim that when that has happened. You might recall the two **religious** families, one Catholic and one Mormon, who claimed exactly that regarding a forced prayer in school issue recently. And you might also recall that “Separate but Equal” was ruled unconstitutional because it was racial discrimination. > [@](#): > > to pass into higher grades even though they have not met the minimal requirements, This is a separate issue from “flag desecration.” It has also been addressed in at least one State, California, that now prohibits “social advancement” in grade level. There are still problems with it, but decent people are working on that–peacefully. > [@](#): > > to have teachers arrested if one so much as grabs one of their arms, Damn straight! Assault is illegal. You really didn’t learn jack from that night in jail, did you? > [@](#): > > and to freely disrupt classes. Causing a public disturbance is also illegal. There are ways to prevent a recurrence of the student’s stunt without resorting to violence. One way is suspension, another is expulsion. > [@](#): > > This open disrespect of the symbol of the nation seems to me to be a sign of a greater problem happening among the populace. The way things seem to you, i.e. “your opinion,” is not a criteria for the validity of those things. > [@](#): > > Everyone has rights to snub authority, Yep. {Heck, you might just win that qupee doll, yet!} That’s called Free Speech. > [@](#): > > to infringe on the rights or freedoms of others, Nope. That’s why you were arrested, remember? You infringed on the other person’s right to be safe in his person. > [@](#): > > to publicly slander anyone or anything they choose, Nope. Slander is illegal. The law may have a different definition of slander than you do, so how about sharing yours with us? > [@](#): > > to offend anyone over any reason without concern of repercussions. You certainly didn’t care about the repercussion of your unlawful assault. {I don’t think you’re going to win that qupee doll after all.} > [@](#): > > Parents don’t seem to be concerned at all to instill respect in their kids for anything but money. Got any proof of this? I mean besides few & isolated cases. > [@](#): > > Then they wonder why later, when the kids grow up, that they have such selfish and sh\*\*\*y attitudes and don’t hold anything sacred. Your unlawful assault certainly was selfish behaviour on your part! You attacked someone because you were offended by their legal action. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > No qupee doll for MoonGazer! The flag is an inanimate representation to identify a particular nation. A good education in History and Civics is what I consider to be something standing for those who have gone before me to defend this land. > > The flag is a symbol for the nation and for what efforts were made to make the nation what it is today. Well, we’ve already seen how accurate your description of things are. I think I’ll go with the fact that it’s a piece of cloth, basically. > [@](#): > > When I was in school, we were taught respect for the Flag. When I was in school, we were taught to respect others’ rights. > [@](#): > > I was in Boy Scouts and we were also taught respect for the Flag, along with how to handle and care for it as well as how to dispose of a worn out one. The Boy Scouts is a private organization. > [@](#): > > Do you know that if an American flag touches the ground, it is to be destroyed? Do you know that if it needs to be destroyed, it is to be taken somewhere private, quietly burned and the ashes buried, not just wadded up and tossed out with the garbage. I know that those are recommended actions. Wadding the thing up is not currently illegal. > [@](#): > > No one hammered these concepts into us, they just taught us why and how and our own respect for the symbol of the nation did the rest. Well, the private organization missed teaching you about the Scout Law, huh? I refer, of course, to your assault. > [@](#): > > Any Scout showing major disrespect for the flag, like spitting or stomping on it, would have been kicked out of the program. That’s because it’s a private organization. They can decide that person should not be a member of the organization. You, on the other hand, do not have the authority to decide another individual does not have the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. > [@](#): > > I guess today, in the Scouts, lawyers would defend his rights to show disrespect to the symbol of the nation and sue the Scouts for kicking him out. Possibly. But I doubt the lawyer would win because it’s a private organization. Please try not to confuse PRIVATE with GOVERNMENT. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > When I serve and honour my country, I do it without worshiping a god in whom I do not believe. That’s my right, and it is in fact because that is my right that my country is worth serving and honouring. > > You don’t walk into a church you don’t believe in and spit on the cross, Torah or Holy relics do you? The church is not the government. Have you ever read the Constitution? Please do so now and check out the First Amendment in its entirety. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > We were taught, and sincerely believed, that when the poor and oppressed around the world heard “The Americans are coming!” they gave a glad shout, help was on the way! The truth was very different, as we came to learn. > > Not until those nations got major billions in American funds, technology, food and weapons did they suddenly decide to bite the hand that fed them. Read ‘the Day of the Triffids’, written by an Englishman, science fiction surely, but quite early, and they mention that ‘soon the Americans will come and they’ll make everything all right.’ Well, they did give a glad shout when the Allies liberated Paris. Evidently folks can be stuck in time. MoonGazer certainly is. I won’t even address the SciFi reference. I will, however, mention that some of those nations don’t appreciate the strings which may have been attached to such aid. It’s one thing to suggest a course of action; it’s another to require it of a sovereign nation. > [@](#): > > That view is mentioned again and again in books of the time by foreign writers. It started changing during the 60s, when Communism was busily going around and trying to undermine anything American. Even today, scores of nations depend heavily on American funds, protection, assistance, charity and tools. And the US depends on foreign oil and a lot of our “tools” (electronics and cars) come from Japan. So what? Does that mean we should jump to someone else’s tune? Anyway, do you have any proof of how effective that “undermining” was in America. > [@](#): > > It is just that since the 80s, our news media likes to portray anti-American sentiment as being the basic attitude of most nations. It sells papers. Cites and statistics, please? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Flags are obscenity, if all they reflect is a nation, not an ideal. > > The Flag is a symbol of that nation, with all of its ideals. No, the flag is a cloth which some take to represent that land. The ideals of that land are in the minds of the people. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > You are a thug. I am ashamed of you. > > I guess I am. I also believe in spanking my kids, variable dress codes in schools, returning authority to the teachers, not suing everyone for every slight infringement, keeping a strong military, and letting kids celebrate Halloween. Actually, you’re a criminal. That’s why you were arrested. You committed a crime. Damn shame you didn’t get prosecuted for it. Also, your “laundry list” here contains things that do not go hand-in-hand. They are separate issues with separate solutions. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Needless to say, this includes your right to be disgusted by me, just as it includes my right to be disgusting. > > Absolutely. I find you disgusting. And I find your intolerance dangerous. Yet, you have the right to think that way. Too bad you don’t respect the rights of others to think differently. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > When in the presence of others who take the pledge seriously (the Boy Scouts, sailing clubs, etc), I stand and recite it. > > Thank you! Hey, young’un. I don’t always stand for the thing. I do, however, respect the right of others to do so or not do so. > [@](#): > > Time and time again, people in other nations less opulent than this one have voiced the opinion that Americans have it too good. It seems that whenever people have plenty of food, luxuries, good health, ample sources of free knowledge, secure and fair laws, suddenly all they get concerned about is their rights and how their nation really sucks after all. My opinion is that folks like you help any land suck. > [@](#): > > Something like spoiled, pampered children who have never had to struggle for anything. Exactly how long did you serve to defend those rights you violated? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/73 "2001-01-13T17:36:35Z")
Helsinki…Stockholm…uhhhh…yeah… OK. What Jello was talking about was how protestors in the US are arrested. Well, protestors are arrested when the break the law…typically because they illegally block public streets. If you feel your message is so important that you MUST block public streets, fine, but don’t complain when the cops arrest you. Protestors in any western country will be arrested if they break the laws. That’s what I’m talking about. If you got arrested during a protest in the US, you we’re arrested for protesting you were arrested for breaking one or more laws. The cops in Sweden are just as crypto-fascist and phallocratic as the ones over here in the US. If you’re upset about the lack of freedom here in the US, try protesting, not in Iraq which is a ridiculous comparison, but in Sweden or any other European country. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/74 "2001-01-13T18:20:28Z")
[quote] Where have I read something similar to this, many boring times before? School is an institution. In that institution you have rules and regulations to follow. \*\* The relevance of this to the pledge of alliegance is ? > [@](#): > > This open disrespect of the symbol of the nation seems to me to be a sign of a greater problem happening among the populace In your opinion alone, based on what study carried out by yourself, no, your word and personal experience will not do. > [@](#): > > Parents don’t seem to be concerned at all to instill respect in their kids for anything but money. Apart from the sweeping generalisation which many parents on this board might find offensive, who are you to instruct others on how to raise their kids ? The respect for money is the American way and has been for longer than you have been alive.It is the success of the US economy that has given the US the primacy in the world that it enjoys today. > [@](#): > > The flag is a symbol for the nation and for what efforts were made to make the nation what it is today. See above and furthermore the flag is only a designation for a bit of cloth with some decoration on it, nothing more. You attatch way too much importance of the flag itself and yet I have not seen you mention the true root of what the US tries to live up to, namely the constitution. You seem to be more interested in iconography than in principles and values. > [@](#): > > Do you know that if an American flag touches the ground, it is to be destroyed? Why is this ? is it infected, does it harbour BSE? Should it be taken to an incinerator and burned along with the carcasses of infected cattle, or is this simply a primative superstition, reminiscant of some stone age idol-worshipping pagans. > [@](#): > > No one hammered these concepts into us. So why then do you find it justifiable to hammer such concepts into a stranger who has not harmed you in any way. > [@](#): > > It started changing during the 60s, when Communism was busily going around and trying to undermine anything American Since when was Vietnam American ? The Communists were not trying to defeat America ,they were trying to destroy any democratic tradition anywhere in the world, or do you think that America alone invented democracy? [quote] Even today, scores of nations depend heavily on American funds, protection, assistance, charity and tools. [quote] Yeah and I guess kids earning ten dollars month making sporting goods for first world youth to wear would agree with you. Make no mistake the US is not as charitable as you seem to believe, the first and foremost interest is to maintain its position of leadership in the world, economic subjugation is one tool, military ‘assistance’ is another. It works and has kept nasty little tinpot dictators in power all over the world, wether in Chile, Iraq ,Nicaragua or elsewhere. What you fail to understand is that other nations have a right to self determination too, are you suggesting that they should also pledge alliegance to the US flag ? > [@](#): > > It seems that whenever people have plenty of food, luxuries, good health, ample sources of free knowledge, secure and fair laws, suddenly all they get concerned about is their rights and how their nation really sucks after all. I take it you are not familiar with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs then.Once you have satisfied your basic requirements to survive you then search for something else to fulfill you.This is what people are doing, looking for ways of further improving their society and that means taking a critical look at what that society’s values are. Once you have no dissent, no questioning or examination of your nations values you either have heaven on earth(most unlikely) or you have a population with no ambition, apathetic and doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/75 "2001-01-13T18:25:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheMoonGazer \* > \*\* > You might not agree with everything which has gone on in the States, but you live in a free land because of most of it, have the right to do almost anything and say anything you want. You got a kid in school that you don’t care if he stands for the pledge or not, then maybe you need to consider moving elsewhere, like Somalia, Egypt, Cuba, or Russia. > > \*\* You claim people have the right do or say almost anything but not the right to not say something? You then proudly talk about attacking someone who was saying something and doing something they wanted to say. (man you are so like Tom Jefferson) You know just because the police are freedom fighters like you dosen’t make you right. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/76 "2001-01-13T19:50:12Z")
To TheMoonGazer: You are wrong, plain and simple. You have demonstrated over and over with your statements that you simply do not understand the rights and freedoms of the country you profess to love, and in so doing, you disrespect and dishonor the ideals of the country far more than did the protester you illegally assaulted. I am proud to be an American. I am **not** proud of many things that have been done in my name by other citizens, whether as private individuals or as appointed or elected members of the government, and I participate in efforts to reverse or mitigate those actions. I have the freedom – and as a thinking citizen, the **obligation** – to speak out against and actively oppose any activities I consider harmful or destructive. I believe spitting on the flag is an ineffective means of expressing that opposition, and I would never do so myself, but the very freedoms and ideals that cause me to love this country dictate that such an ineffective, simpleminded protest must be permitted. The flag is an extraordinarily complex object. To some, apparently including yourself, it is an inviolate expression of liberty and freedom, a sacred symbol that must never be disparaged or abused in any way. To others – notably including citizens of Vietnam twenty-odd years ago, to name one of a thousand possible examples – it is a symbol of oppression and violence. To still others it is nothing more than a piece of cloth to which various meanings have been assigned. The truth, in my mind, is that it is all of these, and more. That is its power as an abstract symbol, that it can encompass so many varying and seemingly contradictory interpretations. Certainly some people can see the flag as the standard of cruelty and domination, because evil acts have without question been perpetrated by representatives of this country while flying the banner, acts which cause me personal humiliation when citizens of other nations confront me about them. And certainly other people can see the flag as a token of justice and goodness, because goodhearted and selfless acts have similarly been carried out under its standard. These are interpretations, nothing more. For you to limit the possibility of interpretation only to those with which you agree is selfish, ignorant, and wrongheaded, and demonstrates you are incapable of appreciating the full complexity of the symbol. When I look at the flag, I see all of its complexity. I see the generosity of the American spirit, as exemplified by our immediate extensions of aid and assistance when Turkey suffers a major earthquake or when Central American nations endure floods and mudslides. I also see greed and depravity, as shown by our selfish support of rapacious thugs like Noriega and Suharto, support which advances our own ends while causing pain to innocent citizens of those nations. But I look beyond the specifics, and work to perceive the deeper philosophy behind the superficial symbol. This requires thought, and empathy, and perspective, qualities which you have yet to display. I would never spit on the flag, because I would be insulting the extensive good done in its name. If I could separate out the evil that has accrued to the flag through the actions of craven, parsimonious men and women, and spit on that alone, I would. But by the same token, I cannot mindlessly pledge allegiance to such a contradictory symbol, because in so doing I would be endorsing the evil perpetrated in its name as well as the good. Instead, I endorse the ideals **behind** the flag, the beliefs that allow me to regard the flag and the country in whatever manner, whatever positive or negative light, I choose. To love the country, to love the philosophy that allows me to make up my own mind about how I feel regarding such a contradictory symbol, does not require that I blindly accept the majority, let alone all, of its trappings. The reason I love America is that it does not demand I or anyone else love it. Your failure to understand this makes you a bad citizen, and exactly the sort of embarrassment that gives us such a negative image in other countries. I cannot hate you for it, though, because just as it is no crime in this country to despise the flag, it is likewise no crime to be stupid, selfish, and arrogant. You may be a jingoistic prick and a moron, but I would not use that to deny your right to express your pigheaded opinions, or your right to vote. And that, sir, is what makes America great. It is vast, and inspiring, and beautiful, and I pity you for your failure to perceive it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/77 "2001-01-13T20:13:37Z")
People during the Spanish American War, the poor living in Cuba certainly did NOT welcome US intervention. Nor did Mexico. Get your facts straight. And I’m not dude. I don’t get you-you say that we have rights-but apparently, we only have them if we agree with you. Who are you-the ghost of Senator McCarthy? ---
**Author:** ![TheMoonGazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b2d939/32.png) [@TheMoonGazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMoonGazer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/78 "2001-01-13T21:53:21Z")
Back to the OP. I see. You place your kids in a school that has certain rules and regulation which they want everyone to follow, but then it’s fine by you if they choose not to follow the one concerning respect for Flag, or any others the place has? Anyone has the legal right to publicly dishonor the Flag. I have the personal right to defend the flag and face the consequences afterwards. There was a time when people were outraged at others desecrating the flag, so any message they were trying to get across flopped, but it seems to me that these days, with so many living now in previously unheard of luxury, few care. Why bother to get involved when you’ve got a nice place, cell phone, SUV, $4000 laptop, $3,000 PC, good medical insurance, great stock plan, cells for the kids, and a garage full of expensive toys? After all, you earned them, not the American Flag. So, why should you encourage your kids to stand for the pledge? I mean, they _might_ have a different view, though as kids, it certainly is not often the right or well thought out one. So, if they decide not to stand and respect the flag, that’s fine by you. Then you wonder, years later, why the kids turn out to have little respect for anything and view the world with selfish eyes. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/79 "2001-01-13T22:00:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyone has the legal right to publicly dishonor the Flag. I have the personal right to defend the flag and face the consequences afterwards. No, you do _ **NOT** _ have a “personal right” to commit assault and battery whenever you feel like it. Assaulting someone else is a crime. You will of course retain certain rights after you carry out such an action–the right to remain silent, the right to an attorney… ---
**Author:** ![Shinrai\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shinrai\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinrai_X)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2001, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/80 "2001-01-13T22:14:32Z")
to tell you the truth, i don’t think the Pledge of Allegiance should be said in schools at all…it’s the same way in Catholic schools, one of which i am currently a junior at…i understand it’s a Catholic school, but not all kids who go there are Catholics, and not all kids who go there even believe in God…so open up the idea of “religion” and hope that you “convert” some kids to Catholicism. I know Jesus is supposed to love me because i’ve heard it in school for 11 years…but when kids don’t know what Buddhism is, there’s a problem. it’s the same way with the pledge, why should i pledge anything to a country which defies it’s very pretense…to be for the people, by the people…it’s neither one [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705.md?page=5)